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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6264   
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not sure if this is going to be deemed PC or not?
but whats the consensus on this. foolishly perhaps but I'm convinced it was Russia ? to my mind the fact that it can't be identified where the poison was produced simply confirms they have an secret production site? part of me thinks this all a little insignificant. there's been numerous people murdered in London since but then this was using a Nerve Agent? what do you all think? oh also do you recall that guy in Moscow who had the dye thrown in his face - apparently that was some poisonous / toxic chemical  .
it clearly does pay to upset the big P of Russia? |
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4th Apr 2018 9:16am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6264
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makes you wonder just how much of this sort of thing goes on without it hitting the headlines ?
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4th Apr 2018 9:37am |
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| X4SKP Member Since: 29 Nov 2013 Location: Berkshire Posts: 2287  
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My 1st Non Defender Post (I think)...long flight with time to 'kill'
1 We don't know and never will with 100% certainty. 2 If you believe that the novichok Nerve Agent was only ever produced by Russia, (as claimed) and that it was defiantly used (which both look to be the case, but we will never know, 100%) then Russia was either directly responsible, or supplied it to others, or lost some, that somehow found its way to others, (I can't think of any other options). 3 Personally I have become increasing less trustful of all politicians. The Hutton Inquiry which made an attempt to establish the 'quality of information' on which we went to war with Iraq, looking at the death of David Kelly, a biological warfare expert and former UN weapons inspector in Iraq, who was named as the source that claimed the WMD status had been 'over stated' / 'sexed up'. Subsequently the WMD / Intelligence Services findings have been shown (in all probability) to be wrong, or highly questionably, even if politicians wanted to have a basis on which to go to war, it looks like the Intelligence Services should have both resisted pressure and reached different conclusions. We like to believe that 'we get these things right' and others don't, there are probably a few individuals that know most of what there is to know in this case, but for most of us we just wont ever be in that position of actually knowing. It doesn't look good for Russia, but the game of perception is really what's going on here. SKIP https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic83242.html |
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4th Apr 2018 10:37am |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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Think a few things. That you start another provocative political thread here which usually does not turn out into something very good, and that your “convinced “ is just based on thin air. Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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4th Apr 2018 12:40pm |
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| Disco_Mikey Member Since: 16 Nov 2014 Location: Dundee Posts: 531  
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Same as the UK government's position
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4th Apr 2018 1:01pm |
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| MartinK Member Since: 02 Mar 2011 Location: Silverdale (Lancashire/Cumbria Border) Posts: 2664 
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Well, I think it's too obvious, and ... Why now? Surely if Russia (or anyone) wanted to kill someone, you would make an attempt to "cover your tracks"? Really, it's like being seen arguing on CCTV, and then leaving a knife with your initials on buried in your enemy's back. Morse/Lewis/Rebus/Vera would all say "that's too convenient...it must be a setup". Until we know more, it seems we've found Russia guilty until proven innocent. I just think it's too obvious. Someone else has something to gain by creating this scenario, maybe? I am sure that if I was sent to kill someone I would at least cover my tracks and construct an "accident" or something. And why now? What's the imminent motive to the attack? Maybe the killers of David Kelly could help  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_(weapons_expert)
Anyway... I still think we haven't been told enough to convict the Russians, even if they are the culprits... they have been made guilty until proven innocent and I don't like that... (of course there could be more evidence than we are being told just now)... Defender "Puma" 2.4 110 County Utility (possibly the last of the 2.4's) |
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4th Apr 2018 1:31pm |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6264
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I do wonder however fi this could easily have gone under the radar.
Had they gone for a longer drive for example they could have been involved in a RTA, or perhaps if they'd stayed at home and a police officer hadn't been infected could they both have died and cause left as un explained? |
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4th Apr 2018 2:56pm |
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| Scoobeenut Member Since: 04 Mar 2015 Location: West London Posts: 310 
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Just look at the Litvinenko case for Russia’s track record, the British Police still want Andrey Lugovoy extradited (a Russian Politician) to face charges for murder. If the Russians wanted these people dead they could have done it without creating any suspicion, but no they prefer to send a clear message by using Polonium and Novichok that if you betray the state then the state will get you.
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4th Apr 2018 4:06pm |
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| Lateralus Member Since: 05 Jan 2016 Location: Ohio Posts: 185 
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Former president Obama told Americans that Russia was no longer a threat as early as 2012 and right before the 2016 election. Obama even scrapped a Bush era missile defense system that was to be built in eastern Europe and it was appreciated by Putin. Secretary of state Hillary Clinton issued a russian reset button to Sergei Lavrov in 2009 to memorialize the historic moment of US and Russia coordination.
So two of the "best and brightest" politicians, probably in the WORLD, did not think Russia was much of a threat and so who would question that? Russia is hosting the 2018 world cup correct? Would Putin jeoprodize that to kill a spy using a toxin known to be used by Russians? Yea, I don't put much faith in politicians. The Bush administration said Saddam had wmd's, he violated UN inspections habitually and we invaded Iraq. Democrats and the media hounded Bush for years over the Iraq war. It was the single greatest mistake in US history according to them and then in 2016, they nominate a woman who voted for that war. These people will say and do anything for power. They will put our soldiers lives at risk for the sake of politics. They work in coordination with their media friends to pressure elected representatives including the president. Iam not saying Russia didn't do it but I trust very little the older I get and I believe "the swamp" extends to many western countrys, not just the United States. Our interests are not their interests. |
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4th Apr 2018 5:53pm |
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| DSC-off Member Since: 16 Oct 2014 Location: North East Posts: 1351 
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Nerve agents are supposed to be highly leathal. The ones developed during/after WW2 were, a tiny amount can kill within minutes with virtually no hope of survival.
Yet none of the 3 people contaminated in Salisbury have died (thankfully, so far). That's what I find strange about this case. As said above, I don't think we'll ever find out who did it for certain. But I wouldn't trust anyone connected to the Russian state. |
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4th Apr 2018 6:37pm |
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| Projectblue Member Since: 22 Nov 2011 Location: Devon Posts: 1096
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Latest speculation I have seen today says you might have been bang on with this theory. I'm not convinced about it being a military grade nerve toxin. The daughter is reported as saying she is feeling much better. Also one observation is that in the current climate, when you can't get a copper to come to your house in person for a shed burglary, they got a home visit from a Detective Sergeant.  New project and it's green: www.projectoverland.info |
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6th Apr 2018 12:32am |
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| ChrisCM Member Since: 10 Jun 2013 Location: Cornwall uk Posts: 572 
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Very strange business. Given the track record of the Russians with the Litvinenko affair they are the obvious suspects given the fact that their laws specifically authorise assassination of enemy’s of the state in foreign countries! It also serves to warn potential double agents that they can never relax and will be dealt with, in these cases they will want everyone to know they did it but at the same time publicly denying it. They do lie constantly, remember the Crimea, “we have no troops there” (or in the Ukraine), bombing Syrian Hospitals, shooting down the Indonesian passenger jet over the Ukraine etc it just serves to muddy the waters.
But some of the circumstances surrounding the poisoning are weird, as DSC-off says for a weaponised nerve agent it doesn’t seem very efficacious. Also, how was it diagnosed so quickly? Surely they should have been dead before that happened? Then the the police response, as Projectblue remarks, the level of Police response seemed very heavy for what might have appeared, initially, to be a simple case of food poisoning or drug abuse. Perhaps the authorities / security services had some intelligence that a hit was likely or given who the initial victim was there is a team on standby to react to any threat to these double agents? Or maybe the Russian secret service just aren’t as efficient as they are feared to be. I don’t suppose we’ll ever know all the ins and outs but interesting to speculate. Given the current evidence my jury vote would be Putin/Russia guilty. 2010 Defender 110 Station Wagon, Santorini Black. |
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6th Apr 2018 8:58am |
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| NoDo$h Member Since: 18 Aug 2007 Location: Buried in deer guts in Dorset Posts: 972
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You've worked closely enough with them to know that people have markers against their addresses etc. for a variety of reasons. No details, just a coloured marker for the call handler to see that it needs to be triaged down a particular route, which is then picked up by local procedures within the assigned nick. For example, if you report a break-in at your place and there's a marker for firearms/shotgun license, you are going to get put to the top of the list pretty bloody quickly. 
54 Freelander modded for mud 2008 D3 SE 2010 90 XS SW 1978 88 Series 3 undergoing surgery with a new owner 2007 90 County Truck Cab - gone 2006 D3 SE - gone 2004 Freelander Sport - gay 1999 Disco V8 ES rotted to bits |
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6th Apr 2018 9:41am |
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| Intercept Member Since: 27 Feb 2017 Location: Suffolk Posts: 587 
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Read this today and found it interesting: https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/20...-knockers/
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6th Apr 2018 11:19am |
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