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BigWheels



Member Since: 21 Mar 2010
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1405

United Kingdom 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Tonga Green
US competition will be Jeep Wranglers

Jeep have a faithful following in the US, Wranglers in particular. Jeep also cherish their faithful, unlike LR did their Defender owners, not sneering at traditionalists.

Wranglers will be an old favourite icon opposing any re-invented "Defender". Apart from part-time 4x4 drive, the Wrangler is decades ahead in design by comparison - air bags, differential locks, auto option, inbuilt roll cage & hugely powerful motors on some models for both fuel types. The new "Defender" has to take on all that, beat it, and of course Japanese competition.

With Trump's presidency soon, import vehicles may face large tariffs. Unless LR set up manufacturing in the US, Wranglers will underprice "Defenders" unless a deal is made. Perhaps US versions will only be deluxe models with "Range Rover" badging. Land Rover Defenders. 67 years heritage, minimal appearance changes, still going strong all over the world. Not a fashion vehicle, but fashionable to own. Made for the needy, not the greedy. Ta ta Defender

Post #588682 30th Dec 2016 1:46pm
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J@mes



Member Since: 20 Apr 2012
Location: Bomber County
Posts: 11

United Kingdom 

While I know it's a different vehicle, I am starting to see loads (and I mean LOADS) of these little Jeep Renegades around.

And when I looked at the Nene stand at LRO I thought the Wranglers they had on show looked great.

http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/listings/jee...di-auto-3/

Not much room in the back though Confused

I'm holding on to my Amarok until the new defender is announced, but I've got a horrible feeling its just not going to be "right", and when I see the amount of Navaras, L200's, Rangers and of course Amaroks around I feel that LR have already lost the market. I can't remember the last time I saw a new or near new defender.

Post #588692 30th Dec 2016 2:38pm
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Pickles



Member Since: 26 May 2013
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2819

Australia 2013 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Keswick Green

In Aussie, Jeeps have the WORST reputation for all sorts of stuff, warranty claims, Dealer back up, and general poor build quality. They don't have a good reputation at all.
And yes in Aussie, there are heaps of Ranger, Hilux, Navarra, Triton, Mazda BT50,...the list goes on,...so there will be plenty of competition.
Pickles.

Post #588848 30th Dec 2016 9:22pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 2228

Ireland 

A manufacturer usually takes a product off the shelves only when they have a replacement to slot into it's place thus ensuring an ongoing presence in that particular market segment. Otherwise the manufacturer has to win back customers who bought something else instead of waiting for the replacement. Makes you wonder what Land Rover's strategy is. You'd almost think that Land Rover want to distance themselves from this particular customer base. 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai

Post #588849 30th Dec 2016 9:23pm
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Setok



Member Since: 16 Jan 2009
Location: Helsinki
Posts: 317

Finland 

It's been like that for years. Land Rover has appeared embarrassed about their most iconic vehicle the vehicle with the most credibility and heritage. The Defender has survived despite Land Rover, not because of it. At the same time Jeep makes the Wrangler their marketing centrepiece. A halo product that makes people buying other Jeep cars feel like they're buying the real deal (even when they're not).

It truly boggles the mind. But then the British car industry is full of stories like that. Cars become successful almost by accident, and then the companies don't know what to do with them

Post #589909 3rd Jan 2017 9:48pm
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custom90steve



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West
Posts: 14154

England 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

I blame the gov when FOMCO sold up and Tata bought it.

The gov supported French masques instead with bail outs, pretty standard move really.

Jeep is going to continue long into the future that's for sure.

LR's current direction of travel I'm not interested in following. Watts Volts = Amps.
Amps X Volts = Watts

Post #589914 3rd Jan 2017 9:55pm
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Fat Cog



Member Since: 19 Mar 2012
Location: North Oxfordshire
Posts: 63

United Kingdom 2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Corris Grey

Funnily enough Ive just sold my 2015 Jeep Wrangler & returned to the Solihull fold with a last of the line 2016 90 XS HT; my feelings for the Jeep are of fondness so why did I sell it & get another Defender...

Ive had LR's for donkeys years and just fancied something similar but different, I tend to buy from new and then sell my vehicles at around the 100k mark, when my 2008 Puma was getting tired I decided to get the Wrangler JK and in nearly two years of ownership and 20k miles the JK performed flawlessly which I would sum up as follows:

1. Over 20k miles the only fault was a noisy electric window
2. Jeep dealer service was fantastic & considering the JK is much the same mechanically as a Defender the price of a main dealer first service was 180 compared to the 480 plus VAT Ive just been quoted by my local LR main dealer
3. On & off road in standard form the JK was simply brilliant
4. Build quality was up to the standard of most modern boxes
5. Depreciation was very low as I got a great deal from new

So why did I go back to the Defender? Well, my love affair started in 1975 when as a 16 year old my Dad (a serial LR owner) said I couldn't have a motor bike but I could have a S1 LR...after passing my test in said S1 I subsequently swapped it for a Yamaha RD250...Dad not impressed!

What followed was a procession of dreadful things like Air Portables, 11A's & Defenders but I loved them all and whilst I absolutely adored the Jeep JK I just didn't have the same DNA connection.

To return to the source of the thread I actually believe that Jeep with the Wrangler must be sitting in rather amused disbelief that LR haven't seamlessly followed up with the Defender replacement, in many ways the latest Wrangler is what the latest Defender should have been like and for many, the Wrangler will tick all the boxes, especially if Jeep decide to offer all the models which are available stateside like the pickup etc. Since 1975...S1, Air Portables, Defenders & finally 2016 90 XS HT

Post #589928 3rd Jan 2017 10:22pm
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spudfan



Member Since: 10 Sep 2007
Location: Co Donegal
Posts: 2228

Ireland 

If the G Wagen and the Wrangler can be kept in production in basically their original recognisable guise, while meeting the myriad of regulations necessary to keep them legal, I fail to see why Land Rover did not do the same with the Defender. They will be playing off it's heritage for years to come so they know that it has a resonance with the motoring public and is a useful brand image.
Fair enough it did not sell vast quantities but neither does the G wagen and that is a more expensive vehicle. Mercerdes have cleverly played up the "quality" image and charge accordingly. Mercedes have no bother selling their vehicle to military customers. Land Rover seemed to be embarrassed that one of their models was being used in the rough and tumble of the real world and deemed it wise to exit and, as mentioned above, distance themselves from that niche.
I don't think that someone seeing an ill kept Defender towing a trailer laden with cattle to the mart would be put off buying a Freelander or a Discovery. They would never have bought one in the first place. I drive a Defender and never considered any other Land Rover model.
If Land Rover had continuously kept investing in the Defender and kept the quality up we'd be in a completely different situation today. By all means invest in a new model to slot in between the Defender and the Discovery but don't exit from the utility/military markets.
For years Land Rover brochures told us that the secret of the Defender's "legendary" performance was it's separate chassis and it's beam axles which were designed to keep the wheels in contact with the ground. Simple and very effective....they said. Now it seems that they are embarrassed by a separate chassis and live beam axles.
I am aware that the vehicle is largely hand built and thus expensive in modern terms to build. Also quality of assembly can sometimes leave a lot to be desired. A case in point being water ingress into the vehicle. The dealers have been issued with instructions of how to track this ingress and solve it. Why could this not have been done on assembly at the factory.
My series 111 does not leak through the windscreen or bulkhead. Inside where the windscreen frame meets the bulkhead there is a strip of heavy duty tape put there in Solihiull in 1982 and it is still doing it's job of keeping water out. (The two piece doors are another matter Whistle) A simple plan put in place to get the basics right, keep the quality of components, including the chassis, up and some effort put into helping the vehicle comply with modern safety requirements would keep this icon going for years to come.
Surely a spaceframe could be fitted inside a widened body to meet structural requirements? Maybe the panels could be fixed to the spaceframe thus giving a better build consistency. Nothing is insurmountable. The Defender should not be viewed in an accountancy stand alone profit or loss making vehicle but as an asset that helps promote and sell other models. It would be a fraction of the cost of the advertising budget.
Anyway, like Don Quixote, I've realised that fighting windmills is a losers game and I'll accept that Solihull's accountants view things different to me. I know that if the Land Rover designers and engineers had gotten their way the series 111 would have been a completely different vehicle to what it was. The powers that be at the time cut the budget told them to tart up what they currently sold(sound familiar?) and put the money into cars. Why invest in the Land Rover when it was selling very well at the time? Anyway I'll get that article from and old LRO and post it...sometime.
And no I am not against change...I changed my shirt for Christmas. Must get the old one washed for this Christmas..2017 1982 88" 2.25 diesel
1992 110 200tdi csw -Zikali
2008 110 2.4 tdci csw-Zulu
2011 110 2.4 tdci csw-Masai

Post #589964 3rd Jan 2017 11:35pm
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bpman



Member Since: 21 May 2008
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 7740

Switzerland 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 Ice LE Alaska White

interesting thread, I'm currently looking at a Wrangler for no other reason than a change cheers, BP Man

My money is spent on Land Rovers, M-Sport Coupes and Beer, the rest is wasted

Post #589995 4th Jan 2017 8:40am
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AM94



Member Since: 10 Sep 2011
Location: Home Counties
Posts: 459

United Kingdom 

J@mes wrote:
While I know it's a different vehicle, I am starting to see loads (and I mean LOADS) of these little Jeep Renegades around.


The Renegade is a cross-platform Fiat 500L, so I'm not sure that we should mention that in conversations regarding the Wrangler/Defender Wink

Saying that, the Fiat Panda 4x4 has a cult following and is supposed to be pretty handy Very Happy

Wranglers are reasonably well built but do suffer from some of the issues the Defender does: water leaks and chassis rot being just two.

I believe the five door Wrangler still holds the title of worlds only four door 'convertible' Wanted - Defender PUMA 90 SW or HT

Post #590084 4th Jan 2017 2:48pm
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custom90steve



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West
Posts: 14154

England 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

Main thing that puts me off Wranglers is autobox, not a fan.
Large engines are okay, but you pay at the pump.

But as I said autobox is the main thing I'm not a fan of.

G wagons are okay, but A, they are German. B, they cannot be compared to a Defender at 82k - 130k.

At least the Wrangler has kept its heritage and doesn't look like a NASA lander like LR's new designs are starting to look like.

I liked the Disco 3, the Disco 4 even more. Then they went and ruined it.. Watts Volts = Amps.
Amps X Volts = Watts

Post #590106 4th Jan 2017 4:02pm
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steve E
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Member Since: 06 Mar 2011
Location: Dinas Powys
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Wales 

I'm also in the process at looking at the Wrangler and come April it will have a new diesel engine and 8 speed auto box that will be much smoother and get a much better mpg

Post #590116 4th Jan 2017 4:21pm
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J@mes



Member Since: 20 Apr 2012
Location: Bomber County
Posts: 11

United Kingdom 

AM94 wrote:
J@mes wrote:
While I know it's a different vehicle, I am starting to see loads (and I mean LOADS) of these little Jeep Renegades around.


The Renegade is a cross-platform Fiat 500L, so I'm not sure that we should mention that in conversations regarding the Wrangler/Defender



Absolutely - but my point (although not made well) is that people seem to be actually buying them. Women, mostly, and who were probably looking at things like Quashquais, Yetis, Kugas etc. So perhaps there has been a swing in the market. They're offering something that people want, at a price they like. I always thought people who bought Jeeps were a bit odd. As it always seemed that there were better vehicles on the market. Especially when it came to the Cherokee/ Grand |Cherokee.

But now, in the rugged, heritage, 4x4 sector there actually isn't any competition in the market. Other than the G-Wagen, at 2-3 times the price.

So perhaps those that bought defenders as a workhorse (and don't want the current crop of DCPU's for whatever reason) will swing towards Jeep as an alternative.

Smile

Post #590133 4th Jan 2017 5:21pm
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Fat Cog



Member Since: 19 Mar 2012
Location: North Oxfordshire
Posts: 63

United Kingdom 2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Corris Grey

steve E wrote:
I'm also in the process at looking at the Wrangler and come April it will have a new diesel engine and 8 speed auto box that will be much smoother and get a much better mpg


I had the 2.8 CRD Auto (with manual override option) which performed faultlessly on & off road...it went like the wind & I regularly achieved low 30's on a long run & averaged about 30 all round. Since 1975...S1, Air Portables, Defenders & finally 2016 90 XS HT

Post #590223 4th Jan 2017 9:02pm
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Wild Card 90



Member Since: 03 Dec 2014
Location: Gerlingen
Posts: 815

England 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 SW Indus Silver

Setok wrote:
It's been like that for years. Land Rover has appeared embarrassed about their most iconic vehicle the vehicle with the most credibility and heritage. The Defender has survived despite Land Rover, not because of it. At the same time Jeep makes the Wrangler their marketing centrepiece. A halo product that makes people buying other Jeep cars feel like they're buying the real deal (even when they're not).

It truly boggles the mind. But then the British car industry is full of stories like that. Cars become successful almost by accident, and then the companies don't know what to do with them


Spot on! It does make you wonder what they were thinking! 1998 Tdi 90 SW,
2008 Td4 90 SW,
2012 2.2 90 SW,
2" raised Trailmaster/Terrafirma
Heavy Track Raids, 255 MTs,
Recaro CSs, anorak, wellingtons

Post #590225 4th Jan 2017 9:05pm
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