 | Home > Technical > 'Busy' steering at high speed |
 
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| ibexman Member Since: 13 Dec 2008 Location: kent Posts: 2874  
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Welcome to the world of suspension geometry ! You would probably find this problem with most lifts car becomes twitchy and un stable unless your off-roading every week or have massive tyres you don't need a lift
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6th Dec 2015 8:46pm |
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| Grenadier Member Since: 23 Jul 2014 Location: The foot of Mont Blanc... Posts: 5765  
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No specific expertise, but you have to think, based on the theory put into responsive steering on race cars, that the shorter, stiffer etc the suspension, dampers and other bits are, the sharper and more precise the steering. That doesn't even factor in having large tyres. Given the extra ride hide and presumably slightly softer ride, especially now it's 'bedded in', it's bound to have more play, non? Monsieur Le Grenadier
I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list..... 2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey |
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6th Dec 2015 8:50pm |
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| Hufflepuff Member Since: 25 Oct 2014 Location: Hampshire Posts: 723  
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Hmm so you both suspect this is normal then? Fiddlesticks!
Still, I'm not sure why it should have only started after an off-roading session, as opposed to when I did the lift. I'll report back after getting the tracking checked over. |
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6th Dec 2015 11:05pm |
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| Wild Card 90 Member Since: 03 Dec 2014 Location: Gerlingen Posts: 1060 
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I have 2" lift suspension on a 90 and have no such issues. Similar settup incuding the 3° correction arms front and rear. 30 mm spacers and ZU alloys arenīt a bonus for accurate tracking, but there is no sign of wandering at high speed. 55000 Kilometer on the clock.
Only under hard braking is correction at the wheel required. But with big tyres and tall suspension that is no surprise. However, one of my previous Landys started to behave as you describe, at around 75000 km and quite a bit of off road useage. We discovered the track rod ends had some play and replaced them. It transformed the vehicle. I suggest you look very closely at the track rods. The wear only has to be minimal to cause an effect. Stephen  Click image to enlarge 1998 Tdi 90 SW, 2008 Td4 90 SW, 2012 2.2 90 SW, 2" raised Trailmaster/Terrafirma Heavy Track Raids, 255 MTīs, Recaro CSīs, anorak, wellingtons |
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7th Dec 2015 6:57am |
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| Wild Card 90 Member Since: 03 Dec 2014 Location: Gerlingen Posts: 1060
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Just read your post again - "fitted Sumo steering bars" - so they are still relatively new. Shouldnīt be the track rod ends, then....
 1998 Tdi 90 SW,
2008 Td4 90 SW, 2012 2.2 90 SW, 2" raised Trailmaster/Terrafirma Heavy Track Raids, 255 MTīs, Recaro CSīs, anorak, wellingtons |
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7th Dec 2015 8:46am |
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| T1G UP Member Since: 08 Dec 2009 Location: Bath Posts: 3101 
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Axle end cup preload, all the ball joints on the steering and toe in.
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7th Dec 2015 9:04am |
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| CDN38 Member Since: 14 Nov 2014 Location: Courtenay, BC Posts: 729  
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May also want to checkable of your bushings for wear.
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7th Dec 2015 9:34am |
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| I Like Old Skool Member Since: 23 Feb 2015 Location: Manchester Posts: 765 
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It doesn't have to be like this.
I lifted my old 90 by 2" with specially made soft springs and it still drove rock steady at motorway speeds, just needed one finger on the wheel and no continuous correction/over correction. This was without castor correction of any kind. A few things spring to mind. 1, Bushes. As you say this has really only started to happen after an off-road trip then check the bushes at the front of the rear trailing arms. Any movement here allows rear axle to steer the vehicle and the axle will track any changes in the road camber meaning you have to correct the steering, this then leans the vehicle a touch which further exaggerates the rear axle steering meaning you have to correct in the other direction which causes the rear axle to steer in the opposite direction too. This leads to a battle of constant minor correction with the back of the vehicle continually fish-tailing. It can be subtle but gets quite tiresome and noticeable when on a long straight run. Also check the bushes at the front of the front radius arms. If these were on the edge to start with a good off-road trip can finish them off. Best to drop the arms off for a proper inspection as just prying with a bar doesn't always reveal the true state (you will be amazed how often apparently good bushes here are suddenly revealed to be mangled rubber with a loose centre sleeve once removed from the vehicle!) 2, Panhard rod. Are the bolts tight enough to stop any movement at each end and are the bushes ok. These bushes are usually quite solid but can move unless the bolts are tight. Also, did you loosen the bolts during the lift? If not you may have killed the bushes by making them run under continuous twist load. Drop the panhard rod off to check. 3, Tracking. Might have been knocked out when off-roading but this is quite hard to do. The tracking shouldn't 'settle' as new parts bed in. If something has been bent though this could be an issue. You have Sumo bars which shouldn't bend but it is possible to bend the thread on the trackrod end if it gets hit in the right place. Worth checking for this. 4, Steering box. Is it bolted to the chassis tightly? Is the drop arm nut tight on the steering box output shaft? Any of these could allow play into the steering and give vagueness. 5, Steering column U/Js. Often overlooked, these can seize or wear which will give steering problems. Get someone to rock the steering while you feel for any play (engine should be off!). If one is seized the only way to tell is to remove the column (not a big job normally) and check them off the vehicle. It could be that you are experiencing a tight spot in one of these that occurs just around the straight ahead position. 6, TREs. Track rod ends all need to be spot on, including the one at the steering box drop arm. Check them carefully, and not just in the straight ahead position. |
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7th Dec 2015 11:52am |
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| Hufflepuff Member Since: 25 Oct 2014 Location: Hampshire Posts: 723
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Thanks for all the replies.
I did replace all the track rods ends as part of the upgrades, and they all seem very tight at the moment with no movement at all when I was pulling on them at the weekend to verify. Similarly all the bushes were replaced, except for the rear A-Frame ends which were checked and determined to be fine (the pivot joint was replaced). I can't find a particular close up picture of the front after the Sumo kit was fitted, but you roughly see the stance on the Welsh hill side: Click image to enlarge Prior to this, I have the following where the radius arms have been fitted and rear drag link, but not the front one at this point. Click image to enlarge When we talk about the Panhard rod, we're talking about the lower of those two front arms, which keeps the axle from lateral movement right? The one on the right of this picture: Click image to enlarge That is one which I didn't change/check/losen, I wonder if that is the problem as you say "I Like Old Skool", I'll check that at the weekend - thanks for the tip. |
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7th Dec 2015 2:21pm |
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| Green Machine Member Since: 19 Nov 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1226 
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Yes, panhard rod is the one that runs diagonally across the front end from the chassis leg to the axle and maintains the lateral position of the axle. Mine had worn bushes and it caused a significant vagueness in the steering. Bushes have just been replaced with new buts and bolts and it is much improved. Also less 'kick' from the steering over bumps and holes. So definitely suggest checking panhard rod bushes and replace if any signs of wear on the inner sleeves. 2005 Td5 | 90 Station Wagon | Tonga Green
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7th Dec 2015 2:40pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879 
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It's hard to tell from the photo but that looks to me to be more than a 2" lift. |
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7th Dec 2015 3:31pm |
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| RRUK Site Supporter Member Since: 31 Mar 2010 Location: Leicestershire Posts: 2014
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My previous Defender came with a 2" lift and it was horrible to drive on the road, just as you described, twitchy, skittish, and would crash about off every little bump.
I got rid of it all and put stock suspension on. Much improved after that! 2016 D4 HSE 1998 110 TUM HS FFR Hard Top XD WOLF 1982 Series 3 SWB Petrol |
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7th Dec 2015 4:27pm |
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| VeeTee Member Since: 06 Mar 2011 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1512 
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I have had the same experience, wandering steering after a greenlaning session. It was worn bushes of the panhard rod. This seems difficult to check, even if there seems no movement when checking there can be play while driving.
I too have a 2" lift and normally I don't have any problems with the ride or steering. Cheers, Vincent 1959 Polynorm 1/4 Ton Trailer, Olive Drab Green (sold) 1970 M416 Military Trailer (Camping Trailer Conversion), Epsom Green (sold) 1975 Series III 88 V6, Light Green (sadly sold) 1996 Defender 110 CSW 300 Tdi, Epsom Green (sold) 2000 Freelander 1 TD4 3-drs, Silver (sold) 2006 Freelander 1 TD4 5-drs Facelift Automatic, Tonga Green (sold) MySite |
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7th Dec 2015 4:37pm |
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| camelman Member Since: 27 Feb 2013 Location: Peak District Posts: 3322
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On my last 110 (TD5 Hard top) I ran an old man emu +50mm, 33inch BFG Muds, standard propshafts and arms and had no issues with steering as you're describing, definitely sounds like something got whacked when you were off roading....
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7th Dec 2015 4:39pm |
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