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Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

nitram17 wrote:
and for those with trucks under warranty who may or may not need it

I'm unclear from the TSB as to whether there would be a cost implication for this fix with a vehicle still in warranty. Although the wording of "at the discretion of a customer" and describing the kit as being "enhanced protection"
might suggest that it is.

0.9 hours at main dealer rates will not be cheap.

22nd Feb 2018 12:11pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

blackwolf wrote:
The AS10 is not particularly hard to access, at least not on a TDCi ( it should be far more inaccessible than it is).

The TSB shows it located adjacent to the ignition lock but access via the instrument panel speaker by the door. However, the photo looks like a left hand drive setup. It seems a long way to reach across - is this the best way in?

22nd Feb 2018 12:41pm

nitram17

Member Since: 09 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2260

blackwolf wrote:
The overlay kit has nothing to do with type of alarm module, and I doubt that the change from one module to the later (and by all accounts significantly inferior non-Lucas version) coincided with the change to the vehicle harness that negated the need for the overlay modification.

hi bw. Are you saying that post 2014 models who have the newer ecu module also have a new harness that stops the shorting of the alarm?did Stacie say that? I'm confused! Where are my pills

22nd Feb 2018 1:45pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16884

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Well, it is easier than removing the unitary dash panel!

Click image to enlarge

22nd Feb 2018 1:49pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

Thanks

Was that planned, or just a result of mission creep?

nitram17 wrote:
hi bw. Are you saying that post 2014 models who have the newer ecu module also have a new harness that stops the shorting of the alarm?did Stacie say that? I'm confused! Where are my pills

I read it as exactly the opposite

22nd Feb 2018 4:07pm

nitram17

Member Since: 09 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2260

Now that I have reread it supercat you are 100% correct...i wondered why a gent like blackwolf did not reply to my post He 1must have thought I was an idiot

Thanks for not humouring me supercat
.

22nd Feb 2018 6:01pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16884

No, I hadn't seen your post (and I don't make any public comments about idiocy)!

What I was attempting to say is that there are two separate issues which are becoming blurred here. One is a poorly-designed harness which introduces a security vulnerability, and which is addressed by LTB00386.

The other is that the Lucas AS10 became unavailable resulting in JLR commissioning a pin-compatible replacement of generally less proven quality.

The two issues are separate and by no means exclusive. Allegedly the harness was modified into production vehicles at some point, but no-body seems to know when this happened. At VIN 446832 the Lucas unit was replaced with the non-Lucas unit, but we have no idea if the harness fix was already applied by this time, applied at the same time, applied later, or, as seems increasingly likely, never applied at all.

From what Stacie has said, reported in the other thread, I imagine that LTB00893 says something along the lines of "If you have a faulty Lucas AS10, replace it with this alternative non-Lucas unit", and that LTB00877v2 says something like "if the non-Lucas AS10 fails in a particular way, replace it with another non-Lucas unit".

Neither of these have a bearing on the harness vulnerability.

I really don't think you can safely assume that if you have a post VIN 44683 vehicle you have the revised harness based on the information that has been prised out of JLR so far.

I hope this clarifies what I was trying to articulate!

22nd Feb 2018 6:36pm

nitram17

Member Since: 09 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2260

Hi blavckwolf thanks for clarifying ....but there was nothing unclear about the previous post ,i was just having a senior momemt it happens a lot when i try to read a post on my mobile ..we do need clarification from landrover and i will try again with stacie.either she is not understanding supercats and my query about the alarm overlay bulletin or more likelly she is being deliberately obfuscatory ...

22nd Feb 2018 7:22pm

DSC-off

Member Since: 16 Oct 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 1351

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Aintree Green

Hi all,
I've been following this and the CRC thread with great interest. While I knew a little about the security vulnerabilities, having had a Defender stolen before, I now have a better understanding of how they go about it and how to make it more secure.

Thanks to all that that have chased JLR to try to get a definite answer on when/if a shorting fix was incorporated at production. The evasive answers are maddening. Not only did they take far too long to respond to known security issue, they may have not have fixed it at all - unless you specifically ask your dealer to do it!

Now we find that the later AS10 is of inferior quality and may not even work when needed, even if the fuse hasn't been blown. Well done JLR.

So thanks again to all that have contributed. Take nothing for granted, make your Defender as secure as you can, it's the only way to keep it.
Cheers.

22nd Feb 2018 9:32pm

macfrank

Member Since: 05 Nov 2015
Location: somewhere in the north
Posts: 993

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

Indeed... so another entry on the regular maintenance list, right below "grease UJs": "check alarm system"...
Could be done be arming with key fob and then unlock with key, for example.

As to the not-so-vulnerable harness, the wiring diagram for MY2012, VIN from 412051, shows a different and more secure wiring involving more than just the one fuse.

22nd Feb 2018 11:16pm

nitram17

Member Since: 09 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2260

if you can say that why cannot Landrover?any pics ?

22nd Feb 2018 11:27pm

nitram17

Member Since: 09 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2260

My last attempt with LR....

Hi Stacie…… I am going to try this one more time and I would be grateful if you could liaise with the LR technical unit and actually answer the question I have asked! I apologise for the format but it is done for emphasis.
While information about Technical bulletins LTB00893[/b] and LTB00877v2 is informative I was asking about technical bulletin [LTB00386 this one from 2011

Click image to enlarge

This bulletin is about the poor design of the wiring loom that allows blowing of the of the alarm fuse by shorting of the indicator wires…the bulletin fixes this problem.

I am trying very earnestly to think of a form of words that cannot be misunderstood by yourself or the ladies and gents of the technical team……..here goes ……its harder than I thought !

1….Background ..Landrover have known since 2011 or earlier there is a problem with the alarm wiring harness that allows thieves to disable/ blow the alarm fuse by shorting out the indicators and produced bulletin LTB00386 TO FIX THIS

Question 1 ….. since 2011 have land rover changed the design of the alarm wiring loom so that technical bulletin LTB00386 IS NO LONGER REQUIRED ..This requires a yes or no answer ….if the answer is yes can you provide a date and vin number for this.

2…..Background …if the answer to question 1 is no …this means if a thief accesses the wing side indicator wires and short the wires it will blow the indicator fuse and more importantly the alarm fuse resulting in the alarm sounder and hazard wires not working ..resulting in a useless alarm .
Question 2 Given this vulnerability why hasn’t LR redesigned the loom

Stacie can you please answer these questions best wishes Martin

Last edited by nitram17 on 22nd Feb 2018 11:44pm. Edited 3 times in total

22nd Feb 2018 11:39pm

macfrank

Member Since: 05 Nov 2015
Location: somewhere in the north
Posts: 993

>if you can say that why cannot Landrover?any pics ?

good question

you mean pics from the diagrams? should I? am I allowed to? "it's out there"

but maybe blackwolf can give a second opinion?

22nd Feb 2018 11:40pm

nitram17

Member Since: 09 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2260

There are two camps on this forum ..one feels that any discussion of any security issues around defender thefts on a open forum is a no no and the other that believes that the theives know all the tricks in the book and any information about protecting your truck from theft is good information .You are not breaking any rules when you post this stuff (unless its copyrighted) you may however cause a few tut tuts!

As a personal example i have had my truck since 2014 and i have only now just found out about the shorting of the indicators trick to blow the alarm now the secrecy camp on here will be quite happy that until now that this has not been divulged on here in any great detail (it may have been but i missed it)in my opinion there should be a security sticky thread for new owners listing the security vunerabilities of the defender as i for one would have been banging on lr door in 2014 if i knew about the shorting issue

22nd Feb 2018 11:59pm

nosnibod

Member Since: 15 Aug 2007
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 365

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Corris Grey

I've been examining the official wiring diagrams for MY12 (VIN 412051 onwards) and compared them against the TSB in question.

The TSB changes the wiring so that the alarm ECU is now powered from the same source as the hazard light switch - connecting pin 8 of the ECU to pin 2 of the hazard light switch.

That is exactly what the MY12 wiring diagrams show is already in place from VIN 412051 onwards...

Click image to enlarge Dave
Gracie - 2015 110 XS County Station Wagon

23rd Feb 2018 7:09am

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