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ppad



Member Since: 16 Nov 2012
Location: now, UK S Coast
Posts: 223

United Kingdom 2005 Defender 90 Td5 HT Caledonian Blue
Vague steering and advice
My 05 90 hasn't had steering work in the 11 yrs I've had it.
Now, it's like my old Series III, lots of play and after some recent Dorset rutted lanes maybe not quite straight. Generally wobbly in summary.
So, being +70 yrs old mostly that sort of work is done by the same local that I've used for 10 yrs.
And, he said go look at Gwyn Lewis web site and pick a beefier kit, he'll fit it.

But, I need to ask the forum first. Have yoiu bought from these folk? What would be a good kit for a better than new precise steering? And, what's likely to be worn anyway? Thks. Sold the much modified 110 2.8, in Oz
Brought the 90 home from Switzerland ...
Post #1040235 18th Jul 2024 2:12pm
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Mdm



Member Since: 11 Sep 2013
Location: Sunny Lancashire
Posts: 1600

United Kingdom 
well if std parts have done you well that's where i would stay.

the wear n tear could be anything so its off to a 4x4/ lr garage ideally for some diagnosis and tlc.

I'm not sure gwyns workshop is still open but he is always flat out busy and worth a call to see what he recommends.
Post #1040239 18th Jul 2024 3:23pm
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34064



Member Since: 12 Dec 2023
Location: South Central
Posts: 183

United Kingdom 2003 Defender 110 Td5 HT Alaska White
I've recently changed my original defender set up for a set of sumo bars including the discovery drop arm conversion drives beautifully straight even after quite a bit off road. 110 Td5 Ex Utilities slowly converting into a pop top camper one day

Build thread:https://www.defender2.net/forum/post1024784.html#1024784
Post #1040251 18th Jul 2024 4:11pm
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markb110



Member Since: 22 May 2010
Location: Guildford
Posts: 2639

England 2002 Defender 90 Td5 HT Epsom Green
PPAD

I went for the Gwyn Lewis kit along with replacing the swivel pins as they were becoming worn and hence made sense to do the lot together.

Its one of those modifications that you wished you had done earlier. Go for it.

Thumbs Up
Post #1040269 18th Jul 2024 7:25pm
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Chicken Drumstick



Member Since: 17 Aug 2020
Location: Near MK
Posts: 737

United Kingdom 
Re: Vague steering and advice
ppad wrote:
My 05 90 hasn't had steering work in the 11 yrs I've had it.
Now, it's like my old Series III, lots of play and after some recent Dorset rutted lanes maybe not quite straight. Generally wobbly in summary.
So, being +70 yrs old mostly that sort of work is done by the same local that I've used for 10 yrs.
And, he said go look at Gwyn Lewis web site and pick a beefier kit, he'll fit it.

But, I need to ask the forum first. Have yoiu bought from these folk? What would be a good kit for a better than new precise steering? And, what's likely to be worn anyway? Thks.

Gwyn Lewis sells some good stuff.

However non of these upgrade will make the steering more precise. Other than you’d be replacing old with new parts. At the end of the day it is a live axle 4x4 with a steering box and the front axle is isolated from the chassis by 6 large rubber bushes. It’ll never be precise.

Sumo bars are pricey…. But there are cheaper options and it only really matters if you have bent the standard ones. Most people only bend them doing competition work. Which is why the heavy duty ones were developed. Normal road driving and laning should cause no issues.

Good quality ball joints last longer. But I’d not believe anyone who’d claim to tell the difference between new ones from the drivers seat. Any new one will be fine.

Swapping to the Disco style arm is more a maintenance thing than anything else. As you need to tool to change it and it is more work. But no steering advantages otherwise.

If you have play in you steering I’d firstly check all of your ball joints. If the steering wheel has moved position then it must be a bent track/drag bar. Lots of play and need to correct going down the road sounds more like a worn steering box.
Post #1040284 18th Jul 2024 9:06pm
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Penfold_6290



Member Since: 22 Sep 2021
Location: Dorset
Posts: 319

United Kingdom 2002 Defender 110 Td5 CSW Epsom Green
Sound advice from Chicken Drumstick above...start from forst principles and don't expect F1 style cornering precision.

Check if the steering column linkage is worn (UJs), are the splines OK on the steering box? Are the clamp bolts tight? Ask me how I know about that one...you can tell a lot by looking at the connection between steering wheel and steering box while a glamorous assistant makes small back and forth movements of the steering wheel.

Is there excessive play in the steering box, can it be tweaked or is it knackered? Does steering input not immediately result in a movement of the drop arm?

What are the ball joints like? A tiny amount of play in one or all of them will make the truck wandery.

Is the preload on the swivels within tolerance?

Lots to check before throwing money at shiny bits.
Post #1040361 19th Jul 2024 3:47pm
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bankz5152



Member Since: 02 Feb 2017
Location: South London/North Kent
Posts: 2168

2004 Defender 110 Td5 DCPU Epsom Green
Re: Vague steering and advice
Chicken Drumstick wrote:
ppad wrote:
My 05 90 hasn't had steering work in the 11 yrs I've had it.
Now, it's like my old Series III, lots of play and after some recent Dorset rutted lanes maybe not quite straight. Generally wobbly in summary.
So, being +70 yrs old mostly that sort of work is done by the same local that I've used for 10 yrs.
And, he said go look at Gwyn Lewis web site and pick a beefier kit, he'll fit it.

But, I need to ask the forum first. Have yoiu bought from these folk? What would be a good kit for a better than new precise steering? And, what's likely to be worn anyway? Thks.

Gwyn Lewis sells some good stuff.

However non of these upgrade will make the steering more precise. Other than you’d be replacing old with new parts. At the end of the day it is a live axle 4x4 with a steering box and the front axle is isolated from the chassis by 6 large rubber bushes. It’ll never be precise.

Sumo bars are pricey…. But there are cheaper options and it only really matters if you have bent the standard ones. Most people only bend them doing competition work. Which is why the heavy duty ones were developed. Normal road driving and laning should cause no issues.

Good quality ball joints last longer. But I’d not believe anyone who’d claim to tell the difference between new ones from the drivers seat. Any new one will be fine.

Swapping to the Disco style arm is more a maintenance thing than anything else. As you need to tool to change it and it is more work. But no steering advantages otherwise.

If you have play in you steering I’d firstly check all of your ball joints. If the steering wheel has moved position then it must be a bent track/drag bar. Lots of play and need to correct going down the road sounds more like a worn steering box.


You say that! Bent my rear track rod on a pot hole!!

Gywn lewis stuff is top end. If you opt for the D2 conversion it does improve the steering feel (probably because the old was worn) + its a standard track rod end, so easy to change.

Best to find out whats actually causing the problem. I had been chasing a vibration and vague steering for 6 months. Eventually i rebuilt the entire front axle with genuine parts and gywn lewis. All gone now but still unsure what actually caused the issue.

Could be a worn steering UJ, swivel bearing preload will play a part in how it feels as will the condition of all the front axle bushes Instagram @defender_ventures
Empire Tuning - Agent
Post #1040365 19th Jul 2024 4:16pm
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34064



Member Since: 12 Dec 2023
Location: South Central
Posts: 183

United Kingdom 2003 Defender 110 Td5 HT Alaska White
Just to add the standard steering bars are not a particularly thick walled tube so when your turning 40kgs+ of rotating rubber they deflect a little bit where as the solid feels more direct because it's actually going into the motion of turning rather than slightly bending just my thoughts but I don't know a great deal. 110 Td5 Ex Utilities slowly converting into a pop top camper one day

Build thread:https://www.defender2.net/forum/post1024784.html#1024784
Post #1040373 19th Jul 2024 6:00pm
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Chicken Drumstick



Member Since: 17 Aug 2020
Location: Near MK
Posts: 737

United Kingdom 
Re: Vague steering and advice
bankz5152 wrote:


You say that! Bent my rear track rod on a pot hole!!

It’s certainly possible. Been there and done it too, but it was during an RTV trial going down a steep mud hill. That said on my trailer which I’ve been off roading since 2003 it still has the factory original standard bars.

I have a set of HD ones from Paddocks that were bought maybe 8 years ago or so to fit and must get round to doing it.

£95 for a pair of HD arms: https://www.paddockspares.com/pm960-heavy-...oints.html
Post #1040376 19th Jul 2024 6:50pm
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tom1979



Member Since: 22 Nov 2021
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 16

United Kingdom 2000 Defender 90 Td5 HT Caledonian Blue
The Gwyn Lewis steering bar kits are top quality. Yes there are "cheaper options" but aren't really comparable to the Gwyn Lewis kit at all, other than they might look similar. The Britpart/Allmakes/Terrafirma/Paddocks versions are all the same product straight out of China, and it shows. Especially in the track rod ends.

The drop arm conversion kit is not hard to do, but if you are using a garage for maintenance then it doesn't really matter, all it does is makes it easier by changing a track rod end rather than a drop arm in the future. Go for the Delphi or Lemforder greaseable track rod ends, or if you don't want to grease them then fit the standard sealed Delphi or Lemforder versions.

Vague steering in Defenders is most often the drop arm ball joint/steering box, although obviously not always or sometimes a mixture of issues. But the drop arms are most common. -------------
Defender 90 Td5
Discovery 2 Td5 Manual
Discovery 2 Td5 Auto
Range Rover Classic 300Tdi Bobtail
Ranger Rover L322 M57
(and more- yes I have a problem!)
Post #1040399 19th Jul 2024 10:16pm
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landy andy



Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5707

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver
Agree with above.
My best mate got some Gwyn Lewis “type” steering bars for his D2. A couple of months later noticed a couple of the joints and many of the boots have failed. After months of trying he has to give in and by GL full kit as no one can source the ball joints on his copy parts. Different threads to standard.
Post #1040408 20th Jul 2024 6:34am
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Chicken Drumstick



Member Since: 17 Aug 2020
Location: Near MK
Posts: 737

United Kingdom 
What did he buy?

The one I linked too uses standard fitment ball joints. So you can choose what you want to run. Gwyn offers 3 different ball joints when you buy.

I have nothing against the Sumo bars, but I’d need someone to convince me how their solid metal bar is worth a lot more?
Post #1040413 20th Jul 2024 7:49am
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landy andy



Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5707

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver
Each to their own.

My understanding is that Gwyn’s are a higher quality steel, the ball joints are the best he can source, and have a thicker neck on the joint, and they have been upgraded to poly boots. They are made by someone not just mass produced by a machine, you can talk to the block who came up with the idea, they are made in the UK not China, you will always get support should it be needed. They come with pages of info/help/procedures

But in the end, I’m very happy to buy from someone I know, and trust. Knowing I’m supporting a UK company and a man who is developing new items to improve my Defender.
Post #1040419 20th Jul 2024 8:57am
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tom1979



Member Since: 22 Nov 2021
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 16

United Kingdom 2000 Defender 90 Td5 HT Caledonian Blue
landy andy wrote:
Agree with above.
My best mate got some Gwyn Lewis “type” steering bars for his D2. A couple of months later noticed a couple of the joints and many of the boots have failed. After months of trying he has to give in and by GL full kit as no one can source the ball joints on his copy parts. Different threads to standard.


All of the aftermarket "heavy duty" steering bar kits use standard Defender track rod ends (11/16" UNF) for all the available vehicles - Defender, D1, D2, RRC. I would imagine anyone in the world who sells Land Rover parts has Defender track rod ends on the shelf. -------------
Defender 90 Td5
Discovery 2 Td5 Manual
Discovery 2 Td5 Auto
Range Rover Classic 300Tdi Bobtail
Ranger Rover L322 M57
(and more- yes I have a problem!)
Post #1040421 20th Jul 2024 8:58am
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tom1979



Member Since: 22 Nov 2021
Location: Bedfordshire
Posts: 16

United Kingdom 2000 Defender 90 Td5 HT Caledonian Blue
landy andy wrote:
Each to their own.

My understanding is that Gwyn’s are a higher quality steel, the ball joints are the best he can source, and have a thicker neck on the joint, and they have been upgraded to poly boots. They are made by someone not just mass produced by a machine, you can talk to the block who came up with the idea, they are made in the UK not China, you will always get support should it be needed. They come with pages of info/help/procedures

But in the end, I’m very happy to buy from someone I know, and trust. Knowing I’m supporting a UK company and a man who is developing new items to improve my Defender.


Correct, GL does not use Chinesium! -------------
Defender 90 Td5
Discovery 2 Td5 Manual
Discovery 2 Td5 Auto
Range Rover Classic 300Tdi Bobtail
Ranger Rover L322 M57
(and more- yes I have a problem!)
Post #1040422 20th Jul 2024 8:59am
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