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Intercept

Member Since: 27 Feb 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 587

2002 Defender 110 Td5 Black LE Java Black

ABS light behaviour for MOT

We all know, because it's explained in the User Manual, that a Td5's ABS light comes on when the vehicle is started and then stays on until the vehicle is driven at ~5mph. After that it goes out if the ABS system is OK.

Today my 2002 DCPU is in for MOT to a different test station to my usual place, so I photocopied the section of the manual where this is explained and placed it on the dashboard for the tester to see. He's since phoned me to say that the unless the ABS light goes out within a few seconds of start-up in a stationary test it's an MOT fail. I've explaind that all Defenders (and other vehicles) of that vintage with ABS have this documented feature by design and that thousands of them have obviously passed MOTs over the years. His response was that if it doesn't go out during the decelerometer brake test then he'll fail it.

I've hunted around the net and the MOT info websites but haven't found the applicable details. Does anyone have a link to where this ABS light behaviour is permitted within the VOSA/MOT rules?

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by Intercept on 15th Nov 2023 2:25pm. Edited 1 time in total

15th Nov 2023 1:23pm

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3214

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Have an 2009 Puma in family, and behaves exactly the same. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

15th Nov 2023 1:58pm

derbywill

Member Since: 25 Mar 2010
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 541

Sounds as though you've got an MOT tester who doesn't know how certain abs systems work, the light stays on until it reaches a set speed (normally around 7Km/h) so it can check the wheel speed sensors.
This is same in HGV's with ABS (Not later EBS) infact the Wabco system fitted to Defenders is very similar to a HGV system.
Years ago in MOT garages there used to be a poster on the wall explaining the ABS light sequence of numerous cars on the road.
If the tester isn't having any of it I would ask him to contact the DVSA technical dept. thats what we used to do on the HGV side.

Good Luck!

Will 2005 90 XS
1954 86'' Series 1 tilt

15th Nov 2023 2:22pm

Intercept

Member Since: 27 Feb 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 587

Thanks all. I just spoke to the DVSA helpline (0300 123 9000) and they can't find any reference in their documentation of this being acceptable ABS light behaviour. They advised to refer the tester to the user manual - page in photo below - and if he still fails it for the ABS light then I can appeal. But if their documentation doesn't mention this behaviour as OK then I'd expect my appeal to fail too... They've also asked me to email mot@dvsa.gov.uk to get them to investigate. So far my tester hasn't failed it, but I can see via the tracker that the vehicle hasn't moved since I parked it this morning.

Click image to enlarge

15th Nov 2023 2:50pm

rallysteve

Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 2201

2002 Defender 110 Td5 DCPU Keswick Green

Testers manual also does not say that the lamp has to extinguish after any kind of delay:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection...s/1-brakes 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab Rebuild Thread
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup Build Thread - Now For Sale

15th Nov 2023 3:13pm

Chicken Drumstick

Member Since: 17 Aug 2020
Location: Near MK
Posts: 553

Intercept wrote:
Thanks all. I just spoke to the DVSA helpline (0300 123 9000) and they can't find any reference in their documentation of this being acceptable ABS light behaviour. They advised to refer the tester to the user manual - page in photo below - and if he still fails it for the ABS light then I can appeal. But if their documentation doesn't mention this behaviour as OK then I'd expect my appeal to fail too... They've also asked me to email mot@dvsa.gov.uk to get them to investigate. So far my tester hasn't failed it, but I can see via the tracker that the vehicle hasn't moved since I parked it this morning.

Click image to enlarge

To be honest I'd be taking stronger action. A vehicle that is type approved and working as intended cannot be the cause of an MoT failure. It isn't as if Land Rover vehicles are rare in the UK either..... so it will be well established this is how this functions.

If this wasn't true, then pretty much every Land Rover from the mid 1990s onwards would have a permanently failed MoT and probably a whole host of other vehicles, as I suspect the ABS check physically needs the wheels to rotate in order to complete its check.

Ultimately I'd consider using a different garage. Not as if there is a shortage of MoT stations.

If they fail it on this I would be seeking compensation for potentially daming the resale value due to having an incorrect MoT history. Basically I'd be bloody annoyed and would quite happily vocalise it to the MoT place.

15th Nov 2023 3:23pm

Intercept

Member Since: 27 Feb 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 587

Crisis averted - PASS now issued

But I will be following up with DVSA to request that their guidance for testers is updated to include advice about such systems. Not holding my breath for anything to change, but it's worth a try...

Thanks for the advice and comments.

15th Nov 2023 3:49pm

cee-b

Member Since: 25 Jan 2018
Location: South West
Posts: 114

Good on you for taking the trouble to follow up for the benefit of others despite you no longer having a problem

15th Nov 2023 4:33pm

Screbble

Member Since: 26 Apr 2015
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 2059

2004 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Zambezi Silver

It isn’t uncommon for MOT Testers to apply their own interpretations or subjective perspectives to the ‘rule book.’

I’ve had ‘that ABS warning lamp conversation’ with my garage in the past, but they were fine and accepted it. As others have said, if that is the factory ‘as built’ specification, then they are in difficult territory.

Of course I did have the situation last year when my Defender failed because the ABS lamp wouldn’t extinguish and I launched into ‘here we go again’ and got quite ‘arsy’ only to be calmed down and told that it was permanently on even above the factory threshold (as above) - and then I had to apologise and spend £££ on a new ABS modulator

15th Nov 2023 8:34pm

Intercept

Member Since: 27 Feb 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 587

DVSA have sent a prompt email reply, which I've attached below because it may be useful for others faced with this situation:

DVSA wrote:
Thank you for your email regarding the ABS lamp on your vehicle.

The MOT Inspection Manual here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection...l-vehicles covers all aspects of the MOT test.

Section 1 covers brakes, with subsection 1.6 dealing with ABS

Note that the fail states : Warning device shows system malfunction

It does not state simply because the lamp is on, i.e. the tester needs to be sure that it is indicating a fault, testers are expected to use their knowledge, experience and information available to them to make their decision.

As you have provided information about how the ABS works on your vehicle ask the tester what they are basing their decision on as not all ABS lamps immediately extinguish with some needing to be driven – that is the exact reason the fail item is worded as such.

If the tester does fail the vehicle then there is a route of appeal that is explained here https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/problems-with-your-test-result

I hope this information assists and answers your enquiry. By all means show this email to the tester

16th Nov 2023 10:48am

TexasRover

Member Since: 24 Nov 2022
Location: Paris
Posts: 800

2002 Defender 110 Td5 DCPU Chawton White

This is a very sensible reply and I am sure whoever finds themselves in this situation will find a way out with some effort, dedication and support from common sense people.

The achilles heel is in the "testers are expected to use their knowledge, experience and information available"

16th Nov 2023 10:55am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16917

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Re: ABS light behaviour for MOT

Intercept wrote:
... His response was that if it doesn't go out during the decelerometer brake test then he'll fail it. ...

What exactly are you complaining about?

You cannot carry out a decelerometer test without exceeding the speed at which the light goes out, so your tester's reply is entirely in order.

Storm in a teacup, methinks.

16th Nov 2023 11:55am

Martin
Site Admin

Member Since: 02 Apr 2007
Location: Hook Norton
Posts: 6487

2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red

I'm impressed DVSA got back to you

1988 90 Td5 NAS soft top

2015 D90 XS SW

16th Nov 2023 12:56pm

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