 | Home > INEOS Grenadier > VW may build 4x4...for £30,000 |
 
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018   
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If those prices are hard to believe then... Geely Geometry EX3 Electric SUV Priced Below $10,000  Click image to enlarge "The least expensive electric car in Europe (excluding quadracycles like the Renault Twizy) may currently be the Dacia Spring, which sells for a touch less than $23,000 before incentives. The diminutive 3.7 meter long SUV has a 26.8 kWh battery, a range of 225 km WLTP, and seats 4 people. Keep those specs in mind while we tell you about the new Geely Geometry EX3." " This week, it introduced the EX3, a 4-meter-long electric SUV that comes with a 37.2 kWh battery, a range of 322 km NEDC, and room for 5. The big news, though, is the price. In base trim, it sells for 59,700 RMB. Listen up, people: that equates to €7,900 or $9,200 — less than half the price of the Dacia Spring. But is it a real car? Yes, Virginia, it is. It comes with a 70 kW motor with 180 Nm of torque. It also has regenerative braking, a liquid-cooled battery pack, a digital instrument screen, a moderately sized touchscreen, and high-strength steel beams front and rear." " Chinese car companies have just begun marketing their cars in foreign markets, but anyone who knows what happened when Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, and Kia trained their sights on US and European sales will know that history could easily repeat itself. 10 years ago, people laughed at Chinese-made cars that folded up like accordions in crash tests. They aren’t laughing any longer." https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/26/geely...low-10000/ |
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28th Sep 2021 9:05am |
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| Bluest Member Since: 23 Apr 2016 Location: Lancashire Posts: 3996 
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Is that the Chinese price, or European price? 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS
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28th Sep 2021 9:44am |
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| macfrank Member Since: 05 Nov 2015 Location: somewhere in the north Posts: 986  
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It's not like that in the rest of Europe - or the world. And I doubt it will be within the next 5 or 10 years. Providing fast-charging infrastructure for 40 millions EVs in Germany alone is a huge effort (we currently have 400.000 EVs and 48 mil. ICEVs). Fuelling up at a petrol station just takes 5 Minutes and gives me a realistic range (i.e. in any climate and with any driving style be it high speed or offroad) of 500 - 800km. Plus jerry cans. And you just don't have to worry about finding fuel or queueing up for it - well, except for the UK maybe  |
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28th Sep 2021 11:48am |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
I think electric will be the way for cities and population centres, but for the bulk of the rural world, it's definitely easier to use gas or diesel (or any portable liquid/gaseous fuel) than solar. There are some real world, mathematical limitations on our electricity transmission, collection, and storage that we haven't figured out yet. For instance, if I wanted to fully charge a Tesla Model S, I would need about 70, 250-watt solar panels based on what I read (https://www.powerelectronicsnews.com/how-many-solar-panels-to-charge-an-electric-car%EF%BB%BF/). My roof has enough room for maybe 10 panels, I'm not sure where I'd find space for the other 60. And, that's just to set up a supercharger in my house that ONLY is expected to fully charge one vehicle per day - none of the rest of my house. Even if I'm only doing the "average" milage (i.e. about 1/8th of my actual annual mileage), I'd need 12 panels, two more than I have room for. The needs of a supercharger "in the wild" would be much greater if it was doing multiple charges per day. Most solar superchargers are solar augmented, not solar dependent, meaning they rely on grid power for when Solar comes up short. And again, there are limitations - most houses in my city (Modern, western, developed) only have 100 amp service. A Tesla supercharger requires 70 of those amps, so I can use my oven OR charge my car, but not both! In remote areas, the only option would be ample solar with massive batteries, which are neither cheap nor light. It can be done, but the amount of energy and resources we would use setting up "off grid" solar chargers would almost certainly outstrip any benefit from having electric cars (thinking of total emissions, from pulling the lithium out of the ground to plugging in the first car -- a lot of energy goes into acquiring those resources). I'm nearly finished a very interesting book called "Numbers Don't Lie" by Vacliv Smil. He's a pretty clever fellow and this book has reframed my thinking a bit on the potential of solar and alternative energy. His proposal is actually off grid solar augmented by gas turbines, since gas turbines have over 50% conversion rate (of fuel into energy), if I'm remembering correctly. This isn't me saying that it can't be done -- quite the opposite, we NEED to do something to manage the environment -- but it is still a lot easier to drop a liquid fuel tank in the middle of nowhere and run vehicles off dead dinosaurs than it is to do off-grid solar, and that doesn't look to be changing anytime in the next decade without a major breakthrough in either solar capture or storage. I wonder about Solar Steam as an off-grid power solution -- there's certainly enough energy in the sun to do it: |
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28th Sep 2021 3:55pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Why would you need a supercharger at home?
The 70 panel argument is a little silly as well. Have as many as you need/want and all energy harvested will go via a battery into charging. It's just not practical to expect solar to pump directly into a BEV without factoring in a buffering facility (battery). The only issue is the cost of home batteries currently. |
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28th Sep 2021 10:02pm |
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| ChasingOurTrunks Member Since: 19 Aug 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 89 |
Supacat,
I agree - if we had good battery storage the solar panels could trickle charge, and thus the 70 panels would not be needed. There's also lots of other variables at play -- for instance, in the summer season, we get daylight from 5:30 AM to after 11 PM. In the winter, thats from 9 AM to 4:30 PM -- so, summer is a far more productive daylight time for us where we're at. But at the end of the day, I am under the impression that its about Kilowatt-Hours. How many KWH does a Tesla take? From what I read they have a 70 KWH battery. Assuming you drive it, you'll use some portion of that, and for me I would wager I would use most of that in "normal days" -- COVID has be staying close to home lately though! How much do panels produce? The numbers I'm seeing are around 1-1.5 KWH per day. So if I'm using a 70 KW-hour battery, I need 70 kilowatts of power to fill it back up, and if I need to do that daily with Solar, it's gonna take 70+ panels. No matter how many batteries I have at home, if I'm using 70 KWH/day, I need to generate 70 KWH/day. That being said, I'm not an expert on this stuff; as I said in my previous post my thinking is evolving on this as I read more, and I'm always happy to learn more if I'm mistaken about the above! The Supercharger language I used may be incorrect - I looked up what chargers Tesla comes with, and what I saw was that they require 70 amps. If I only have a 100 amp service to my house from the power pole, which I do, then while my car is charging I'm very limited on other available power. More modern neighborhoods have better service, but I'm not exactly in a backwater, so I imagine there are quite a few hundred million, maybe even in the billions, of homes on 100 amp service or less around the world. I do think Solar/EVs are the future in some contexts, but they have very real challenges right now that stop them from being a perfect solution, and they are far from easy to set up relative to dropping an above ground tank inside a spill protection zone (which seems to be the current practice for remote fuelling around here) |
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28th Sep 2021 10:52pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Numbers Don't Lie - just ordered, thanks. Now left.
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29th Sep 2021 12:34pm |
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| mikeh501 Member Since: 07 Jan 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1142
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2032 prediction...... some numpty tweets that the national grid might not be able to charge everyones cars over the next few weeks so if everyone could think about that before they plug in their cars for charging that would be great....
.... next day..... national brownouts, whole economy crippled, memes from those running hydrogen about how stupid the EV car drivers are.  |
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29th Sep 2021 3:28pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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You're ignoring those with BEV and solar panels and batteries?
And then some might participate in vehicle-to-grid and then there's talk of demand throttling to cut charging rates. |
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29th Sep 2021 4:56pm |
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| mikeh501 Member Since: 07 Jan 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1142
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id have thought household size solar wouldnt make any diference at all to the problem tbh, and those with batteries must be vanishingly small % of installation given the cost, and even then they are generally only a few kwh nothing like enough to fill a car. Aren't these fast chargers now 3 phase too?
wrt vehicle to grid and demand throttling.... id assume this all depends on standards and compatability. id think pipe dream until the whole technology is more mature and by that point there will thousands of various ages of cars and chargers everywhere. I guess my general point is that if we think a couple of days of petrol shortages are an inconvenience just imagine what a general blackout would do. there would literally be looting and lawlessness breaking out. The gov would have to turn on all the dirty gas & coal power stations - the irony. |
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29th Sep 2021 6:02pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Household solar with battery is probably more common with early adoptors, but all who have this setup can be "immune" to the issues you talked of above.
ICE users keep talking about filling a car and look at max battery capacity. That's not how BEVs are generally being used. BEV owners are happy to opportunity charge whilst shopping at Tesco, trickle overnight on special tariffs, or just occasionally supercharge. You talk of a pipe dream but since 2019 all chargers funded under the Govt grant scheme have had to be "smart" ~ "This means chargepoints must be able to be remotely accessed, and capable of receiving, interpreting and reacting to a signal. Smart charging can also reduce high peaks of electricity demands, minimising the cost of electric vehicles to the electricity system – and keeping costs down for consumers by encouraging off-peak charging." https://www.gov.uk/government/news/governm...-july-2019 I would think the National Grid is a far more resilient method of obtaining energy than any other method, but particularly liquid fuel from designated outlet. |
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29th Sep 2021 6:33pm |
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| mikeh501 Member Since: 07 Jan 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1142
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Sorry I just dont buy what your saying. early adopters of solar dont buy batteries they buy panels first. Batteries are very expensive compared to the panels and its usually an add-on once you have solar.
And ill stand by the pipe dream comment. I work in IT and ive seen so so many instances of new standards and technologies which get replaced by the next one. The current vehicles and charging tech are all immature technologies right now and new ways of working and technology will replace them as they become more mature. So anything which relies upon complexity, orchestration of systems, integration etc are really very likely to be updated/replaced/deprecated as new products come to market. As for the national grid being more resilient than petrol..... not my area of expertise but from what i understand they have to quickly engage gas turbines right now when there is unexpected demand as its the only technology they have which can quickly scale up. nuclear is a base load, solar, wind are all unpredictable so they use this to fill in. i was joking earlier but if we do see the BEV revolution and there are millions on the road then its bound to put a huge load into the grid. i just hope the .gov is planning for it (thats a joke  ) as the consequence of no electric is huge compared to people not having petrol. |
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29th Sep 2021 7:18pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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I meant early adoptors of BEVs who also happen to have solar, see the advantages of adding batteries... the BEV basically is the business case and for early solar adoptors, the FiT rates they are getting will easily fund even quite expensive batteries. |
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29th Sep 2021 8:00pm |
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| Supacat Member Since: 16 Oct 2012 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 11018
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Your usage seems extreme, but then Canada is a big country and if you are driving hundreds of miles every day (as opposed to night) home solar is pointless, as the car won't be there to charge. Some fag packet calcs from my home panels - 16 off with a nominal total output of 4kW: Best calculated daily production from a single panel = 1.18kWh (May 2018) Worst calculated daily production from a single panel = 0.17kWh (Jan 2017) Figs are only calculated as I only log a monthly reading from the system as a whole. |
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1st Oct 2021 10:15am |
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