 | Home > Technical > 2.4 TDCi Exhaust manifold fittings - questions |
 
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879   
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Can anyone shed light on the correct fittings for the 2.4 exhaust manifold, please?
The link here - Exhaust Manifold - is to the parts diagram on the LRW site which may help unravel the puzzles. Q1. (a) What is the purpose of spacer LR004347 (Item 6 in the diagram), (b) why is there only one fitted to only one of the two studs, and (c) is there a Ford equivalent? I cannot find any mention of this part on the Ford version of this engine, and don't really understand why it should be necessary on the Landrover version unless it is somehow connected to the fact that the front manifold branch is completely obscured by the alternator mounting bracket. Any insights would be welcomed. Q2. (a) In which holes should the two studs actually be fitted, and (b) does it matter where they are fitted? The linked diagram, which is the genuine official LR diagram, shows a stud fitted in the top hole of the branches for cylinders Nos 1 and 3. Diagrams in the Ford equivalent show the two studs fitted in the top hole of the No 2 cylinder branch and the bottom hole of the No 3 cylinder branch. The 2.2 TDCi engine has a very similar manifold (only the EGR port is different) but the Landrover diagram shows the studs fitted to the lower hole on No 2 branch and the upper hole on No 3 (i.e., different to either of the above) and has the spacer fitted to the bolt in the upper hole of No 1 branch! The only consistent thing is the complete lack of consistency! My 2007 Defender engine matches the Ford 2.4 stud placement (not the Landrover placement) and neither stud and none of the bolts have the mysterious spacer fitted. My bolts are also the earlier type with a cup-shaped integral washer under the flange head, whereas later vehicles seem to have conventional flange-head bolts with no washers. The part number for the integral-washer bolts has been superseded by that for the conventional flange-head bolts. The reason I want to establish best practice is that for years I have had a leak from the front branch of my exhaust, caused by the almost total failure of the threads in the head, either through overtightening or possibly due to the manifold warping in a manner similar to that favoured by the TD5 manifold or a combination of both. I will shortly be removing the manifold to repair the threads in the head, and would like to ensure on reassembly that the problems do not recur. I have a new manifold and all new fasteners, but don't have the mysterious spacer and I really don't want to fork out a ridiculous £17 for this, the best price I can find online inc p&p for a genuine part unless it is strictly necessary. Q3. The third and final question is which is preferable, Helicoil or Timesert inserts, for the thread repair? I have the technology for either and am inclined towards the Timesert, but if anyone has had any good or bad experiences repairing TDCi manifold threads with either I'd like to hear them please. What should be a straightforward repair is as usual made complex by the access problem and the amount of dismantling required just to get at the job - the air intake, filter box, alternator, serpentine belt, alternator bracket, turbo, heatshield, heatshield mounting bracket, and on my vehicle Provent installation, all have to come off just to get access to the affected holes in the head. Thank goodness I don't also have a/c, since the compressor would have to come off. |
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6th Sep 2021 3:19pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879
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Thanks Dinnu
I wonder too about the spacer, I assume it must be ceramic, but I don't understand its purpose (especially since if ceramic it will be very hard and dimensionally stable). My main cause for wonder comes from the fact that it is shown as fitted to the stud or bolt that is causing me problems, and I wonder if the problems original from the absence of the spacer. There is very little to choose in terms of diameter between a Helicoil and Timesert tapping drill for M10, since the corrugated nature of the Timesert insert actually makes it thinner than the double 60 degree thread shape of the Helicoil. I think that I will probably end up deciding which is the best once the manifold is off and I can determine the depth of hole I have to play with; all other things being equal I will probably go for the Timesert since it removes the need to snap off the Helicoil tang in the hole and extract it. I suspect that it really doesn't matter where the studs go and that they are only there to make assembly easier than it would be if all the fastenings were bolts. |
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6th Sep 2021 7:00pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3208  
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Haa, ceramic spacer, now why that did not cross my mind. But still not wiser to why it is on the Landrover drawing
The benefit of Helicoil is as the bolt stretches, the coils adapt to the 'new pitch'. Indeed, the tang could be a pain, I had a case while breaking the tang that it dislodged the bottom coil - although unsure if that was just bad luck, or me doing it wrong (it was very difficult position too). But was easy to unravel the coil and inserting a new one. There are the tangless Helicoils though. PS. I do not have any shares in Helicoil.. just used them quite a few times and never been disappointed. I always use the 304 stainless, but there are some other material choices. Whichever way you choose, success for your repair. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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7th Sep 2021 7:40am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879
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Thank you, appreciated! |
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7th Sep 2021 8:54am |
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| Pacha Member Since: 23 Feb 2020 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 772 
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Could the 'spacer' be there simply to more accurately locate the manifold?. Rgds.
Chris |
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7th Sep 2021 10:31am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879
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Possibly, but if so it seems very odd that it is fitted to that par6ticular stub or bolt, and only one. I'd expect one at each end, or it to be fitted nearer the middle.
It is very odd, and there must be some explanation.... I have ordered a spacer from Craddocks since their price is about right (i.e., only fairly ridiculous) but at least they don't charge £12 to deliver a tiny part. It isn't clear if it is genuine, OEM (whatever that means now) or aftermarket, and Craddock's reputation these days does not appear to be great, so my hopes are not high. If it does arrive and is at least reasonably genuine it may become a little clearer what it is for. |
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7th Sep 2021 12:51pm |
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| hank Member Since: 12 Sep 2016 Location: South Wales Posts: 2231 
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I don't know the answer to this, more a thought.
Could the spacer be to ensure the nut doesn't bottom out on the plain shank of the stud? Presumably the plain bit of the stud would be within the manifold hole but perhaps as an added failsafe to ensure the nut can tighten down on the threaded section? > 110 XS Double Cab > Instagram @simonlanemind |
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7th Sep 2021 12:59pm |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879
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Good thought, however this is actually one we can rule out since the two studs are identical, the manifold flange thickness is constant, and only one stud has the spacer. If this was the reason then both studs would need to have the spacer.
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7th Sep 2021 1:41pm |
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| piechipsandpeas Member Since: 12 May 2021 Location: Albany, Western Australia Posts: 168  
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Does the spacer sit in the hole in the manifold and act as a reducer if the hole is too large a diameter for the size of stud or does it sit proud and therefore keeps the nut off the manifold?
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7th Sep 2021 2:53pm |
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| piechipsandpeas Member Since: 12 May 2021 Location: Albany, Western Australia Posts: 168
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Just checked my 2.2 exhaust manifold. Only one stud used and the spacer on the top bolt of cylinder 1 port isn’t visible so assume if it’s there then it’s acting as a reducer sleeve if that bolt hole in the manifold happens to be larger for whatever reason.
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7th Sep 2021 3:16pm |
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| Dinnu Member Since: 24 Dec 2019 Location: Lija Posts: 3208
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My 2.2 has 2 studs, lower position on #2 ( hard to see with the heat shield) and top position on #3.
As blackwolf already mentioned, the studs are probably there to prealign the gasket and manifold before it is fully installed. #1 top position is a bolt (impossible to see without a camera). 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing 2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black |
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7th Sep 2021 6:11pm |
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| piechipsandpeas Member Since: 12 May 2021 Location: Albany, Western Australia Posts: 168
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I can see the bolt, just not the spacer.
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8th Sep 2021 5:51am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16879
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To be fair to Craddocks, a firm which does seem to have a significant number of detractors at the moment, the spacer arrived very quickly. It is completely unbranded (it doesn't even have the dreaded B***part word on it) but I am still none the wiser what it is for. It doesn't seem to be ceramic, more like a hard plastic, although if it is B***part it may be the plastic version of a ceramic original. It has a number of little lugs or protrusions around the "waistline" on the outside, which may be supposed to make it a snug fit in the hole in the manifold. Sadly I can't test this theory until I remember where I put my spare manifold! It would certainly be crushed completely if it stood proud of the manifold, so it must fit in the hole in the manifold flange between the stud/bolt and the flange and therefore must in some way serve to locate the manifold. When I get round to doing the helicoil/Timesert job I will update this thread. |
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13th Sep 2021 6:27pm |
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| LR90XS2011 Member Since: 05 Apr 2011 Location: bickenhill Posts: 3613 
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could the single larger hole in the manifold be due to the machining process rather than the application, and the spacer just be a fix for that? DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,
I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy |
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13th Sep 2021 8:53pm |
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