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Angus_Beef



Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Norway 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey
Another Puma clutch failure
2015 110SW, 91,000km, BAS 170 tune

Has been showing signs of weakening springs under full throttle for a year or so, but never rattled at idle or misbehaved.

Ive been treating the clutch pretty gingerly to get more life out of it. Had the output shaft replaced with the LOF one last month. Clutch seemed just fine at the time.

Drove from Switzerland to Norway at the beginning of August, without drama.

Yesterday, driving normal, pushed in clutch for a normal gear change to hear a Brrrrrrrrrr and feel vibration through the clutch pedal. But clutch did disengage, just seemed weird.

Today, clutch goes Brrrrrrrr when pressed in, whether moving or stationary idling. Clutch does not disengage completely. I am assuming that one of the torsion springs (think thats what they are called) has fallen out and is wreaking havoc.

Went to a recommended repair shop found via a Norwegian forum and got booked in for next Monday. The mechanic there immediately recommended a SACHS 3000 950 727 (Transit 4x4) clutch. He said there is another, stronger one that he doesn't recommend due to a heavy pedal and rattles.

And it looks like my Swiss breakdown insurance might even cover the cost of a rental car and clutch replacement (cross your fingers for me!)

Im getting two quotes, one with the flywheel, and one without (depends on condition once its apart)

I need to decide on the clutch disk by tomorrow. Any objections / suggestions / thoughts on SACHS 3000 950 727?

Cheers,
Dave Roaming around πŸ‡³πŸ‡΄πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­
Post #917233 16th Aug 2021 11:34am
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Angus_Beef



Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Norway 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey
Here's a video of the Brrrrrrrr

 Roaming around πŸ‡³πŸ‡΄πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­
Post #917242 16th Aug 2021 12:23pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16812

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
The transit 4x4 clutch has a strong following in certain quarters (especially amongst the Italian Def2 forum membership) and seems to be a very good and readily available alternative the other options. I have never heard of any problems with it and in fact have one myself waiting to go in.
Post #917243 16th Aug 2021 12:28pm
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Ianh



Member Since: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 1695

United Kingdom 
The transit 4x4 clutch has good reviews on here, plus lof clutches, especially the extreme version or the Hd clutch from clutchfix.

Perhaps pm dgardel on here as he advocates the transit 4x4 clutch and will be able to advise on which vendor is best.

Blackwolf beat me to it .... again Smile
Post #917246 16th Aug 2021 12:33pm
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Angus_Beef



Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Norway 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey
Thanks guys, confirming what I thought.

The other option is SACHS 3000.951.539-S

https://www.sachsperformance.com/en/clutch...3000951539

Reinforced clutch kit Land Rover Defender - custom-modified.
Approx. 30% higher transmittable torque than the original clutch kit. Roaming around πŸ‡³πŸ‡΄πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­
Post #917250 16th Aug 2021 1:15pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3141

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
Although I do not doubt that the transit 4x4 clutch could be a better clutch than the alternative, what is actually the difference?

If the springs are stronger, could the transit 4x4 clutch transmit more cyclic load to the rest of the transmission, possibly wearing more adaptor shafts, more diff pins and more drive flanges? 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #917254 16th Aug 2021 2:01pm
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Angus_Beef



Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Norway 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey
Well, yes, your logic is sound. But following that to conclusion would entail keeping the standard clutch to spare the drivetrain, and instead, de-rating the engine. Entirely possible I suppose, but not what I am after.

Im comfortable with things as large as diffs becoming consumables, but I am not ok with random failures. Im quite ok with scheduling ashcroft diffs in the calendar, and flanges every 35k (the are dirt cheap afterall), but most of all, I really, really like the bas 170 tune and I want a clutch to support it.

There are some extremely strong clutches available, but even in their mildest form I read reports of them so tight they chatter the gearbox in neutral. Im not wanting to go that far, and hoping, based on the feedback I read, that a SACHS reinforced clutch will be a happy medium. Roaming around πŸ‡³πŸ‡΄πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­
Post #917282 16th Aug 2021 4:24pm
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Ianh



Member Since: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Essex
Posts: 1695

United Kingdom 
Have a read of this

https://www.defender2.net/forum/post773840.html

Dgardel post in particular and link to a site in Italian, which is helped with google translate if like me you can’t read Italian.

Plus he confirms the part number
Post #917286 16th Aug 2021 4:46pm
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Angus_Beef



Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Norway 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey
Yes, I think this is the route I’ll take. I’ve got 2000km more to go to Lofoten, and then another 4000km back home by October, so I’ll have a good few miles on it before putting the truck away for winter. Stay tuned… Roaming around πŸ‡³πŸ‡΄πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­
Post #917299 16th Aug 2021 6:18pm
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RobKeay



Member Since: 19 Jul 2009
Location: Stafford
Posts: 1561

United Kingdom 2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey
Hopefully you wont require a flywheel. The tdci is a solid flywheel unlike the dual mass of the transit.
Post #917301 16th Aug 2021 6:57pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16812

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Transit 4x4 is a solid flywheel too, of course (otherwise the clutch would not be an option).
Post #917308 16th Aug 2021 7:16pm
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Angus_Beef



Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Norway 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey
Heard back from the shop with a quote, as agreed.

Labor: 11,000 NOK plus 25% VAT
Total cost: 26'000 NOK without a flywheel, 34,000 NOK with flywheel

He was not able to tell me which parts he would use (contrary to what was previously discussed).

Now I am considering doing it myself. I figure I can get it done in about 12 hours of labor? Sounds reasonable working on the ground?

2.2 watchouts - the DPF is in the way. Should be able to loosen the down pipe at the turbo and move it to the side?

Any thoughts and or tips from those who have done it themselves (here's looking at you, Blackwolf!)

thanks in advance guys,
Dave Roaming around πŸ‡³πŸ‡΄πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­
Post #917423 17th Aug 2021 3:30pm
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nitram17



Member Since: 08 Jun 2014
Location: newcastle
Posts: 2260

That's a very expensive clutch Big Cry 4-6 hours work if done by a competent well equipped workshop!
Post #917439 17th Aug 2021 4:49pm
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Dinnu



Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3141

Malta 2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black
That is indeed a steep price.

Luckily on my 2.2, previous owner replaced the clutch, so so far I have not needed to remove the gearbox. But I guess yes, you would have to move the dpf a bit.... but probably more because of the exhaust pipe that crosses from right to left side of the vehicle.

Another watch out are also the dpf temperature sensors. There are 3 of them, the wires of which run along the right side of the gearbox, and their plugs are secured on a bracket fitted to the top right bolt that secures the tbox to the adaptor housing. The wires of these temperature sensors are very flimsy / delicate.

I did once replace a tbox on top of a wet / freezing mountain. Very limited tools, as it was 500km and 2 ferries away from home. Took about 5 hours to remove and fit the replacement (and needed to stop for 1 hr as it hailed so badly).

So your 12hrs estimate sounds good to me.



Click image to enlarge
 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black
Post #917501 18th Aug 2021 6:14am
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Angus_Beef



Member Since: 30 Apr 2015
Location: Oslo
Posts: 434

Norway 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Corris Grey
Yesterday morning I ordered the LOF RoadSpec bundle as it was just going to take too long to source other parts. The parts I previously mentioned would ship "with in 5 business days" which sounds like a two week wait to me. Luke has always been very helpful with the Master and output shaft, so I'll be installing his clutch as well.

I spent a good half a day getting tools together and trying to find a suitable transmission jack but ended up going the engine hoist route.

The t-box is now out and the dpf loosened and moved aside. Wiring harnesses and clutch hydraulics are clear. Now Im in the process of locating the bellhousing bolts. There should be 10, I have found 6 so far...and it appears some are from the engine side?

Any tips on the best way to get the bellhousing bolts out?

Also, it looks like there is enough room that I can support the trans with the engine hoist and just slide the transmission backwards to gain access to the clutch, leaving the crossmember in place (if there is no need to lower it to the ground). Thoughts?

Click image to enlarge



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 Roaming around πŸ‡³πŸ‡΄πŸ‡¨πŸ‡­
Post #917765 19th Aug 2021 2:25pm
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