 | Home > Maintenance & Modifications > My Thermotop C install in a RHD 2.2 puma |
 
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| TJ101 Member Since: 30 May 2007 Location: Taunton Somerset Posts: 3747   
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I really must extract my digit, and get round to fitting my one
One day  California F1, 75th 110 "Kermit", 50th Ann V8, 90 V8 Hybrid, 55 Series 1
Main Brian James Trailer Dealer for South West UK |
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2nd Dec 2020 6:07pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 7683 
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didnt you get it the time i picked up my first one......4 years ago? or more now.
we spend alot of time away camping remotely as a family, a proper shower at the end of each day makes a world of difference. Cheers James 110 XS Utility 130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making) 90 Puma Hardtop |
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2nd Dec 2020 9:08pm |
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| Matt110 Member Since: 29 Jun 2014 Location: UK Posts: 673 
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To be fair I've had mine over a year now.
They are a proper face ache to fit especially if you're not buying a complete ready put together kit and need to put something together yourself. Fuel, air, exhaust, power, water. Plenty of opportunities for "drat this heater is obviously the 27 they built with that attachment then" |
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2nd Dec 2020 9:58pm |
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| Matt110 Member Since: 29 Jun 2014 Location: UK Posts: 673
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Well.
It's in. I've got no hands left, they're a scratched mess. I hate the heater duct with a passion. But anyway...... it's in there and all boxed up again. So update from the end of the last one: Air supply fitted. I used exhaust hose, ordered a fake inlet filter from eBay (£4.99, little different to original equipment now it's here, has a foam silencing pad inside which is pointless, but apart from that will do a good job of shielding from the water in the engine bay). Routed behind the heater and left in the hole at the back. It might rattle. Will fix that if it does. But the exhaust hose is quite rigid so hoping it keeps it suspended.  Click image to enlarge Exhaust was more of a challenge. I couldn't for the life of me work out how to get the silencer packaged in there with sufficient gaps to not burn the paint on the bulkhead or the wing. So I left the silencer out. Who needs a quiet Defender anyway. I actually quite like the noise they make. I digress... Solution 1 was to hold the bottom area shown below with P-clips. All very well and looked neat and gave a nice isolation from vibration but the trouble is the heater would have just melted the rubber in the P-clip. By now my hands were a mess and frankly I was getting rather cold, so I gave up on the pleasant appearance of something that'll never be seen, and bunged 2 jubilee clips on a homemade bracket, which I drilled and bolted into the lower wing support bracket. (which on my 110 appears to be loose - anyone know where the other end of the fixing is on the bulkhead end? It looks like it might be accessible from the inside, not sure - needs tightening). So I now have this: Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge It's very secure. Doesn't move, holds the exhaust tube off the bulkhead and steady away from the wing. Should be OK. Gives exhaust out location here... Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge The hose routings.... i think i'm going to need some kind of talking therapy to get over it. The routings are horrendous. But they do fit. Just. 1 x U section in silicon, 1 x L section in silicon, and about half a dozen plastic 90 degree bends to get them to be neat and away from everything sharp. There is still risk they'll wear on the wheel arch liner due to vibration, so i've cut a piece of sacrificial hose and zip tied it on to give the actual hose protection. Should be OK. This entire install is going to be a "watch it every now and again to make sure it's all still sitting nicely" and adjust as needed. But anyway. It's in there. Click image to enlarge Sorry, rubbish photo. Can't get in there to get images as i can't even see in there myself, have to do it by touch. So it's in there. It's boxed up, and now "all" I have to do is connect fuel and water which are lying in the right places zip tied ready, and finish the electrical connections inside. But the main hard stuffs done. Next installment.... fuel at the tank end, and water connections etc. I might do that after xmas. |
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15th Dec 2020 12:13pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 7683
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its hard work getting it in there, good effort.
i know you wont want to hear it having fitted it but the exhaust there is in direct line of the water coming off the tyres. when its hot that fine but it wont be hot when your vehicle is up to temp driving around in the rain. Mine is routed down behind the inner arch and then goes to the chassis rail, it runs up on top of the chassis rail towards the front of the vehicle to the silencer an then pokes down post silencer behind the front cross members. wills end some pictures of the routing when my thermo top comes back from menders, dropped it in this morning. Cheers James 110 XS Utility 130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making) 90 Puma Hardtop |
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15th Dec 2020 2:37pm |
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| Matt110 Member Since: 29 Jun 2014 Location: UK Posts: 673
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Thanks JST, I was a bit worried about the water ingress but figured it would be unlikely to get so far up that it would reach the heater with the cerrations in the exhaust pipe and the angles it goes through. I guess I was hoping that would be ok.
Would really like to see your routing though as when funds permit and when it inevitably has to come out to be serviced (wasn't new and thus may need some "help") I might change the routing and add in a silencer. In complete honesty I ran out of funds to buy more longer hose so just used up what I had. Have got a whopper of a silencer to fit at some point, it's an old one that came with an eberspacher 5kw air heater kit from about 15 years ago. Will see how it goes. Hope yours comes back OK and all working OK. Incidentally I'm still baffled how you got yours out without cutting the inlet duct in half for the heater lol. I pushed and pulled and shoved, tried a range of swear words, nothing would get it out to give more access lol. |
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15th Dec 2020 2:57pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 7683
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i bent the heater duct 180 over on its self, it takes it and springs back out. well sort of springs back. will take a pic when i remove it next.
Dropped mine in this am, hes just called its fixed, burner issue so they replaced that. apparantly its run 420hrs, which equates to 1000 starts roughly. i dont think water will go up the exhaust it will just corrode it from the outside. Cheers James 110 XS Utility 130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making) 90 Puma Hardtop |
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15th Dec 2020 7:08pm |
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| Matt110 Member Since: 29 Jun 2014 Location: UK Posts: 673
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To be honest that's not bad, 1000 starts and 420 hours run time, and i think i remember you saying from your other thread it had been in for 10 years. Most car parts only have an initial design life of 10 years anyway so I'd have said pretty good service really. Hoping mine does a few years worth before it has to come out lol. We shall see.
I found the AC feed line was getting in the way of me bending it half  |
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16th Dec 2020 12:42pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 7683
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yep 10 years old, so i was quite happy with it and the 420 hrs.
i will take a picture when i have manhandled the air ducting again! Monday all being well. Cheers James 110 XS Utility 130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making) 90 Puma Hardtop |
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16th Dec 2020 9:56pm |
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| jst Member Since: 14 Jan 2008 Location: Taunton Posts: 7683
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refitted mine back in the wing today and working a treat.
downside is i think glowplugs need doing on 2.4 lump as cold starts without it fair bit of cranking plus lots of grey smoke anyway as promised, exhaust route as shown Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge ducting - this one i cut out a section for the webasto to sit into, the output pipe goes through the ducting. Click image to enlarge refitting the ducting, it takes some bending Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Cheers James 110 XS Utility 130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making) 90 Puma Hardtop |
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21st Dec 2020 10:39pm |
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| Matt110 Member Since: 29 Jun 2014 Location: UK Posts: 673
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Thanks for the images. Much appreciated. Had no idea it would bend that much.
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22nd Dec 2020 10:28am |
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| Edpike Member Since: 04 Jul 2020 Location: NI Posts: 35 
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Matt110 - this is a really interesting piece and thanks for sharing this in so much detail.
I have been contemplating installing a Webasto to my 2007 110 CSW 2.4, but I was looking at the Air Top model and installing it in the inside of the cab. The thing that put me off is the noise inside the cab. I had no idea there was a different option and I now realise this was the case with my Disco 3 as it was fitted with one of these heater units. Before I head down this road could you answer a couple of questions? 1. You mention you had to add a couple of relays to keep the heater running after cycle 1 and when the engine was off. Do you have a circuit diagram of this as I was baffled as to what you did. This is not down to your description but more to do with my lack of electrical experience. 2. Does your solution heat the cab first then engine or both at the same time? Again the in-thread conversation confused me a little. 3. Can you fit a remote control to your solution? I am thinking about pre-heating the car without having to go out to it or starting the engine. Lastly, I would love to hear an update as to how the upgrade is working for you. Really impressive stuff.  |
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1st Jan 2021 4:58pm |
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| Matt110 Member Since: 29 Jun 2014 Location: UK Posts: 673
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So I think it depends a lot on what your chosen solution is, and from that.... what budget you're assuming. I'll have a go at the answers below....
So you only need my solution if BOTH following are true: 1. You are using a heater second hand from a breaker out of another car, with a "run-time" program that's bespoke to the manufacturer of that car. 2. You are expecting the heater to run, and maintain the block temperature permanently after switching on, for an indefinite length of time (battery and fuel provision ignored), WITH THE ENGINE OFF. This is because if you use a brand new heater, aftermarket, from a reputable distributor (Mobile centre, Butler Technik etc) then the heater will function as above anyway. Aftermarket heaters turn on with the main controller, run their circulation pump, and then keep the pump running permanently until you command the heater to turn off. They will simply keep the block warm permanently. My aftermarket one, when tested, did not. It was set up (ironically by land rover as mine's a freelander part) to run through one heating cycle, i.e. heat the block to 65 or 70 degrees whatever its set point is, then switch off. Including the circulation pump. The manufacturer assumption (Land Rover when they did the freelander) is that it would run once, pre-heat the engine, you'd then go out to the car with it still warm, start it, and it would then be used as an auxiliary heat source to keep the block warm till the combustion kept it that way. Works fine. Including for a defender, including yours, assuming that's how you want to use it. But it wasn't going to work for me, because my use case included things like, sitting on top of the Wayfarer in wales for an hour for lunch and looking at the view at -6 degrees outside, with the engine off (to protect the DPF) but wanting heat from the block and the circulation pump running so that the heater blower stayed warm even with the engine off. For that I either needed an aftermarket heater with aftermarket control (jn my case a cost delta of around £1000 from what I built up second hand), or to kid the heater into doing what I wanted. I chose the cheaper option. I realise that that's what you've asked me about, and I do have a circuit diagram which i'll dig out next time i'm in the shed and post, but it occurs to me that unless you've got the same specific usage case I have, where you want heater blower heat with the engine turned OFF, for extended periods of time, you don't need to modify it, and thus that may well answer your question. Even the freelander parts, if you run the engine, the engine water pump will run, circulate the water, and if the webasto detects a drop in temperature, will then fire back up again. But to me - not useful, as I needed the engine left off.
A Thermotop C is a water heater, running with it's own circulation pump in the coolant loop. That includes both the heater circuit, and the main block circuit. You don't need to leave the heater turned "up" to heat the block due to the 3 way bypass valve referred to earlier in this thread. So once the whole coolant system is up to temperature, or above ambient, you can start using it to heat the vehicle by turning the heater blower on and the heater dial inside, up. Which then comes out warm. Its not really possible to isolate the two. You get both at the same time as it's all the same coolant.
Mines a 12v triggered unit. Because the freelander ones were simple 12v activation circuit boards on the heaters. Many many others from other vehicles are CAN triggered. So in my case, yes, I can simply 12V trigger it from a cheap Ebay remote control 12v trigger device. However this has been super well covered in the "THE Webasto Thread" thread.... so I won't go over it here, see what you reckon from that thread. It's well worth a read and will orient you to what you can do with which heater types. There are now CAN signal generators that you can use to interface the heaters available, so you can use other OEM parts. But have a read. Only other thing - I've not actually finished mine yet!!
Badger very very kindly sent me my fuel pick up pipe, but i've yet to fit it etc as my garage isn't heated, and frankly, it's freezing out there!! So i've not actually tested my circuit diagram fully yet. Will share when I do get it all going. |
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1st Jan 2021 7:19pm |
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| Edpike Member Since: 04 Jul 2020 Location: NI Posts: 35
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You are a star and a very comprehensive response - thanks for taking the time.
I am really torn about this as I know I can pick up a quality second hand Webasto for a decent price and may even trawl some local breakers yards to see if I can get a better deal. My main issue is time - young family and busy job do not leave much capacity for working on my Defender. A recent windscreen wiper fix nearly caused divorce proceedings all exacerbated by a crappy aftermarket wiper motor... I will keep an eye on this thread and make make a decision this year as by the time I get the parts and time I am sure it wiil be summer... Great content and good luck with the rest of the mod. |
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1st Jan 2021 8:48pm |
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