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| landy andy Member Since: 15 Feb 2009 Location: Ware, Herts Posts: 5423  
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Have you changed the injector washers?
Before starting the vehicle do the pump priming procedure and wait for it to finish before trying to start it. During this you should hear the pump doing it’s thing, but shouldn’t hear lots of air noise. |
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25th Sep 2023 9:35pm |
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| LandymanStefan Member Since: 30 Aug 2017 Location: Surrey Posts: 862  
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Check the cable from the crank sensor to the ecu. Consider getting an independent loom for the crank sensor to the ecu so you can rule out the wiring.
Ideally find someone with a nanocom and watch it as you crank, i has this issue with mine and you could see the engine speed reading as 0rpm when cranking. I tried crank sensors, i changed my cabling as mine was in poor condition (could see copper in places). I still had the problem after this and the last thing in the circuit was the ecu itself. Changed that and it’s been fine since. |
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25th Sep 2023 9:37pm |
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| CJs110 Member Since: 06 Sep 2023 Location: Windsor Posts: 6  
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Thanks for the replies.
Andy, I will have to check with PO if the injector seals/washers were done. Does this more so relate to the rough idle or the hard to start? Do you think a bad seal/washer is flooding the engine with too much fuel? I generally use the bleed method when I go to start the car after a few days. Again this hasn't guaranteed the car to start first try. How can I determine if its a lot of air in the system? I feel I hear the pump loud(ish) when using the prime procedure, but not sure what to listen for to determine if there is air? Stefan, I will take a look at the sensor loom. I do recall it being a bit on the crusty side. A nanocom is definitely on the wishlist, in the meantime if there is anyone somewhat local to Windsor/Chatham in Ontario would be so kind as to plug in?  .
If it is an ECU, is the process getting a replacement or having the original rebuilt? Thanks |
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26th Sep 2023 1:53am |
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| rallysteve Member Since: 10 Feb 2014 Location: Cumbria Posts: 2200  
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Injector seal issue is the opposite way around, during running the combustion gasses pass the copper washer and enter the fuel gallery in the cylinder head. After you have stopped the engine, this gas pocket tends to accumulate around some or all of the injectors meaning when you try and start next time, there is no fuel at/in the unit injectors to be pressurized and injected.
When you turn the ignition on and hear the fuel pump, do you hear any gurgles or noises like air bubbles moving around the system (worth doing the fuel purge routine mentioned above though) as this is a telling symptom of injector seals. The starter motor can supposedly also cause interference which prevents the crank sensor from getting an accurate reading but I suspect this is often only the case when the original crank sensor (shielded) cable has started to break down. Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab Rebuild Thread 84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup Build Thread - Now For Sale |
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26th Sep 2023 11:43am |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4406
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Agree with rallysteve here.
The most intermittently Miffy has ever been was after I fitted a OEM starter motor (very close to the CPS and wiring loom), it was so incredibly noisy (electrically) that it over-powered the CPS signal. Replaced with a Denso starter and the problem instantly resolved itself. If you want to quickly try something to discount signal interference, wrap a load of tin foil around the CPS wiring and see if it helps. This should help shield the signal from possible noisy electronics. The other option is to make yourself a stand-alone by-pass CPS loom back to the ECU. It is not a difficult job to do DIY. I removed my by-pass loom after changing the starter and the standard loom has been fine, so that shows how awful that cheaper starter motor was. |
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26th Sep 2023 11:55am |
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| geobloke Member Since: 06 Nov 2012 Location: Nottinghamshire Posts: 4406
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You mention you changed the fuel filter. Have you replaced the fuel filter housing as well? The fuel really shouldn't drain from the engine back into the tank in a few days enough that you need to do the system priming. The fuel filter housing can be the location of a few fuel issues.
The second is if the one way valve and bleed valve are in the wrong ports or faulty. Finally, if the housing (cast aluminium) has corroded enough to allow air to be drawn into the system. All of these could produce intermittent starting issues related to fuel draining back to the tank. These are the posts I made on the subject https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic53859...;start=255 The position of the one-way valve can be in a different position depending on the age of MY of the TD5, but the bleed valve (I believe) is always in the same location. The 10P engines (pre-EU3) didn't have the one-way return valve, it was an addition for the 15P (EU3) engines, like we have. Miffy is also a 2003 TD5 and the one-way valve is in the rear right port, not the rear left port. Worth checking where yours are. In this image you can see how corroded the housing became at the ports, almost all of the material has corroded away next to the copper washers. You can also see where my one-way and bleed valves were located from the factory. 
For info: There was a Tech bulletin RE TD5 staring issue in 2004 regarding the condition of the bleed valve sealing o-ring - http://gershon.ucoz.com/landrover/TD5/TOPI...oisy_F.pdf For reference: CPS by-pass loom posts https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic53859...;start=240 |
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26th Sep 2023 12:43pm |
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| Green Machine Member Since: 19 Nov 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1226 
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Also see my post here:
https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic88475.html May not be the issue, but if your relays are the originals, they probably aren't in great condition. Mine is a 2005 and they were in pretty bad shape. Mine was doing just as you describe (continuous cranking with no attempt to actually start). The only difference with what you describe is that I noticed on the occasions when mine wouldn't start, the engine management and glow plug lights didn't illuminate on first ignition position. On occasions when it would start, those two dash lights did come on first. Can't say for certain that yours is the same issue, but after swapping my relays (under the driver's seat) for new ones several weeks ago, I haven't had a single non-start issue since. 2005 Td5 | 90 Station Wagon | Tonga Green |
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26th Sep 2023 4:36pm |
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| CJs110 Member Since: 06 Sep 2023 Location: Windsor Posts: 6
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Thank you for the explanation. So bad seals result in more difficulty starting the next time. Yes when I do turn the ignition I do sometimes hear something of a alternating high & low pitch "whine" from the pump - like it changes tones. I will take a closer listen and see if I can get video to see if it is more like a gurgling noise. Meantime I will add a injector seals set to the order list. I think injector seals/washers and a rocker cover gasket? Or since the gasket was replaced in March should be ok? Sorry not sure how to add multiple quotes to one reply But thank you geobloke. I am going to try the tinfoil in this weekend while I get some wiring to make a separate loom and try that out for the CPS. Thank you for the links. Very good point about filter housing, no I did not replace that so that is definitely a place I will check as well to see And Green Machine thank you for the insight. Likely the relays are all original so definitely would be worth checking. Is it one specific relay that affects this system or should I be looking to replace the lot? Interesting you mentioned the dash lights, because regardless if the car does/doesn't start the lights do some on at the first position. Thanks all for replies, it gives me a number of things to try and look at during the weekend!!![/list][/quote] |
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28th Sep 2023 7:20pm |
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| Green Machine Member Since: 19 Nov 2010 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1226
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I suspect that it was the main relay on mine (because I was told this is the one that is most likely to be causing the non-start issue) however I neglected to do any thorough testing. I just ordered replacements for all 3 relays (main, glow plugs, and fuel pump) and replaced all of them at the same time.
The LR Specialist that I have used previously (and asked advice from about this issue) said that relays should be considered a service item on Td5 Defenders. Beyond 10 years old, they cause an array of problems and are usually his first 'port of call' for electrical gremlins. 2005 Td5 | 90 Station Wagon | Tonga Green |
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3rd Oct 2023 4:32pm |
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| CJs110 Member Since: 06 Sep 2023 Location: Windsor Posts: 6
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Hi Everyone. Thanks for all the insight. So far ordered:
-Injector seals/washers (Arrived) -Filter housing repair components as per what geobloke wrote (arrived & installed) -New relays (haven't arrived yet for some reason?) So the first thing I tried was aluminum foil around the CPS wire. I may have done a pretty bad job wrapping it, because it made no difference. Still inconsistent starting. I have some wire and a connector end I will make a standalone wire and route away from the starter as was suggested and see if there is a difference. Next thing, the filter housing repair components came in and I removed the old (see below) Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge Replaced with the following part numbers: Click image to enlarge Filter housing looked good, sealed well when reinstalled. Very easy repair, my one-way valve was in the same location @geobloke - makes sense both 2003's. But the repair did not make a difference. Still refused to start until I cranked, off, & cycled the key like 4 times. Next steps: Relays when they come in, CPS standalone harness, still hoping someone in Ontario nearby has a Nanocom? 
I am holding off on the injector washers at the moment (parts have arrived) until I have the garage cleared enough and the time to start that repair. (It is getting colder and I dont fancy cracking open the rocker cover outdoors). Thanks again, will keep everyone updated!![/img] |
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12th Oct 2023 4:41pm |
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| Hazza Member Since: 10 Jan 2011 Location: North Yorkshire / Leeds Posts: 208 
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There is an alternative way to rule out an electrically noisy starter - bump or tow-starting. This removes the starter from the equation. 1990 Defender 110 200TDI Camper - now converted to Td5 power
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16th Oct 2023 8:21pm |
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| CJs110 Member Since: 06 Sep 2023 Location: Windsor Posts: 6
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Hi Everyone,
It's been a while since I replied. A number of things have happened since then! I finally got around to the injector washer/orings. They actually weren't too bad (bit of crud on the washer but all the orings were great). That said everything was out so I replaced them. Click image to enlarge Click image to enlarge - No difference still same starting issue Then I tried the starter with a push start (2nd gear). I had my brother push a few times and couldn't get it to go? So I was thinking, ok likely NOT the starter. But wait!! It happened that I saw the OEM Denso for a good price so I picked one up. I tossed it in and boom!! Click image to enlarge (Old starter) It starts now everytime hot or cold!! BUT!! And unfortunately there is a BUT. The key word is that it starts everytime now, but on cold starts (anything where the car has sat 8+ hours) it starts and dies immediately? It needs to be started a few times/accel pumped to attempt to get it to idle. Warmed up there is 0 starting issues. Any thoughts or advice? I am thinking the reason the push start didnt work is due this issue. I have previously done the filter bleed/valve repair, that said at the time the housing looked bad worth replacing? Or is it the fuel pump? Again appreciate the advice and sorry for the lengthy absence (I really had to hype myself up to do those injectors with the cold weather) [/img] |
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12th Apr 2024 9:13pm |
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| NickMc Member Since: 01 Oct 2014 Location: Norn Iron Posts: 1571  
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Two things I’d try the ground post in the Seatbox where the ecu lives, feed a separate ground and see if that improves.
The 10AS box look and see for water damage. They’re getting old and temperamental now. |
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12th Apr 2024 10:39pm |
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