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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green
Rover v8 exhaust manifold woes

The glacial paced project which is the 110 rebuild is creeping forward at an embarrassingly slow rate.

I have run into a problem with the exhaust manifolds. I bought the Double-S sports system, including the manifolds. When I came to fit it - I discovered it occupies the same space as the Bosch knock sensors - the blue plug in the following picture:


Click image to enlarge


A bit of googling later, I found that there is a 'slimline' version of these knock sensors, to resolve this very specific problem, so these were ordered from Tornado Systems (http://www.tornadosystems.com/product/slim...ransplant/), and these turned up on the door step shortly after:


Click image to enlarge


With the original knock sensors removed, the manifold could then go on. Plenty of clearance around the right hand side of the chassis:


Click image to enlarge


although the starter solenoid is going to get cooked - it will need some sort of heat protection. The exhaust also clears the gearbox removable cross member, which was a concern I had:


Click image to enlarge




However, the story on the other side is tight tight tight:


Click image to enlarge


with about 3 mm of clearance to the chassis rail, as well as going to cook the clutch slave cylinder Sad


Click image to enlarge



So I am in a quandary of what to do, with two big issues to resolve:

(1) Clearance to the chassis rail on the left hand side
(2) Cooking the engine components

I don't think I can easily bend the offending pipe further inboard, as its already within 1mm of the next pipe over - which is not that far from the engine itself - and I don't know how I could bend them in further anyway, doing it while attached to the heads does not seem like a good idea.

I could knock a flat into it increasing clearance, which seems the bodge approach, or I could just leave as is to see how much rock of the engine there will actually be.

An alternative approach might be to fit the p38 style manifolds, which are pretty cheap at about £70 on ebay for a used set:


Click image to enlarge


But then I'd have the problem of trying to construct a pipe to connect to the remainder of the Double-S system - although this would perhaps make the job of welding on the O2 sensors a little easier.


Any suggestions?



Talking of the rest of the system - this is the fitting kit which the exhaust came with:


Click image to enlarge


The exhaust attachment points on the chassis are horizontal holes like this:


Click image to enlarge


Does anyone have any bright ideas as to how that fitting kit is supposed to attach to the exhaust at one end, and the holes at the other? I am totally stumped. 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #866180 8th Nov 2020 10:51pm
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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10115

United Kingdom 

Nice work on the knock sensors, when I put my 4.6 GEMS in, Tornado hadn’t got such a thing, so I had to adapt the originals.
Tornado hadn’t got wiring harnesses either, so I had to make mine.
My exhaust needed manipulating (good word for bodging) I heated it up and used a round hammer to ‘offer’ some more clearance.

The starter motor problem I solved by making a heat shield out of sturdy alloy, curved the same as the starter diameter but was 1-2” longer so it shielded the wiring and connectors. I held it on with a jubilee clip! 10k miles and no issues.

The exhaust hardware... the donuts go between the 2 flared ends of the manifolds, bolts for the 3 holes in each of the triangles, the standard clamps for the rest of the system. (IIRC) instagram @v8_scumbag

Post #866215 9th Nov 2020 8:17am
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landy andy



Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 4530

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver

Have you considered getting the headers ceramic coated to assist with the heat.

Post #866219 9th Nov 2020 8:42am
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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10115

United Kingdom 

I wrapped mine in thermo tec to help. instagram @v8_scumbag

Post #866220 9th Nov 2020 8:46am
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Thank you for replying gentlemen.

If I understood what Tornado were saying correctly, the slimline knock sensors were actually what Land Rover moved to towards the later stages of the GEMS production Greeni, it just seems to be information which was secreted away. You have to be a little bit careful with which connector it has on it, as they also changed the connector at some point - but the ones I have are for the original style of the blue sensors.

Did you get the same Double-S manifold then Greeni? It seems such a pity to batter them to provide a bit more clearance, I wonder if I can work out a way to bend them a bit in the bench vice...


I was aware of ceramic coating landy andy, but had not seriously looked into it. Doing a bit of googling, I have found a couple of places within 50 miles of home which will do it, eg: https://www.zircotec.com/ at Abingdon, although the lack of pricing on their website is a little cause of concern - prices on other websites seem to range from around ~£300->£600 if I have extrapolated their sample prices.

I wonder how much heat transfer a ceramic coating would actually offer, and how long would it last? 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #866261 9th Nov 2020 1:04pm
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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10115

United Kingdom 

Yeah I got the Double S.... not a massive amount of choices to go at.
For the knock sensor I got some nuts and bolts of the same thread, wound the bolt in the block, welded the nut to the head and screwed the knock sensor into that, works a treat Mr. Green

Edit: Have you got the co2 sensor bungs welded in? instagram @v8_scumbag


Last edited by GREENI on 9th Nov 2020 2:37pm. Edited 1 time in total

Post #866273 9th Nov 2020 2:36pm
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jonny



Member Since: 10 Mar 2013
Location: North Wilts
Posts: 124

I don't think the P38 manifolds will fit - the outlet points directly towards where the bulkhead goes from memory, and there's not enough space to make a downpipe..

Regarding the knock sensors - they look to be standard Bosch sensors used in a multitude of European cars. Unless the mounting stud is made out of solid gold there's a rather large markup going on there!

Post #866274 9th Nov 2020 2:37pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Yes they were steep, made worse by the fact that I had broken (well I'll assume it was me) one of the original blue knock sensors when installing the engine somehow, so I'd already shelled out £70 for a replacement blue one, oh well Embarassed

Thanks for the information on the p38 manifolds jonny, I did wonder how far forward the bulkhead fits in relation to the downpipe location. I shall remove that option from the list then, money saved.


I haven't welded the O2 sensors in yet Greeni. I'm contemplating putting them in the Y-pipe piece rather than the manifolds, as its a simpler circular circumference there, which I am hoping to get a matching diameter O2 bung. The manifold joint where 4 pipes meet is a funny shape, and I am looking to keep things as simple as possible for my limited TIG skills Smile 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #866279 9th Nov 2020 3:11pm
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Romadog



Member Since: 07 Jul 2011
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 1730

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Range+Ro...6B8lgzRnGM

I use standard RR Classic/ D1/ Def 50th manifolds and standard y section then modify from then on to suit Thumbs Up

Post #866339 9th Nov 2020 7:01pm
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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10115

United Kingdom 


Click image to enlarge



Here’s where mine ended up. instagram @v8_scumbag

Post #866357 9th Nov 2020 8:25pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Those heatshields seem to be unobtainable Romadog, but thanks for the heads up on them.

On reflection, I don't think I'm going to be happy using this stainless manifold. Assuming I want to batter into submission so that it has more clearance to the chassis rails, the design of them will behave like a bit set of radiators with lots of surface area, cooking everything under the bonnet.

I dug out the original carburetor manifolds to assess them:


Click image to enlarge


Obviously they are a lot more compact (which is good). However I do wonder how restrictive they would be for the larger capacity engine - while I am not after a race car, I also don't want to loose a significant amount of power and/or economy just because of the manifolds.

Instead, I am contemplating obtaining a set of Range Rover manifolds as you suggested Romadog, such as these currently on ebay:


Click image to enlarge


and then fabricating a stainless section to meet up with the rest of the system, possibly also with one of the flexible joints in to allow for a bit of engine movement. Not sure how I'd manufacture the flange to bolt to these manifolds, I don't really have a tool to cut ~10mm steel to shape. I wonder if I could get a matching downpipe and flange from somewhere... 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #867584 15th Nov 2020 8:35pm
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jonny



Member Since: 10 Mar 2013
Location: North Wilts
Posts: 124

If you use the 3.9 manifolds, a 3.9 RRC Auto catless Y pipe it will join up to a standard defender back half..

I have 3.9 manifolds, a stainless Y pipe from Rimmer and a TD5 back half on mine. You may need to fit & slightly modify a disco gearbox crossmember (which are cranked vs. the defender one which is straight) to allow the pipes to go underneath rather than over the top.

Post #867587 15th Nov 2020 8:40pm
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V8GPC



Member Since: 18 Jul 2016
Location: Manchester
Posts: 289

United Kingdom 

The second picture with the cast manifolds with yellow paint are the same as the 50th Defender.
They also clear the blue knock sensors.

The tubular crossmember is easy to modify - it just requires longer end plates (or a section welding to extend them.)

Post #867664 16th Nov 2020 10:10am
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muddypaws



Member Since: 22 Jan 2013
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 120

England 2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SVX Station Wagon Santorini Black

OK, so I may be a bit late for the party but are these bad boys any good?
They are bespoke S/S, 1.5" primaries with a four into one 2" collector outlet; just happen to have these lying around Wink



Click image to enlarge



Click image to enlarge
 Richard

Defender 90 SVX

Post #867675 16th Nov 2020 10:53am
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Oh man... yes it would have been Richard - had I not only this morning decided to stop dawdling and get on and move the problem forward.

I have ordered the above Range Rover manifold, which I will attempt to fabricate a joining piece to the remainder of the Double-S system.
It is scheduled to arrive on Thursday, so I'll see what £100 buys me in second hand parts off ebay. 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #867748 16th Nov 2020 6:33pm
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