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roel

Member Since: 08 Aug 2009
Location: Lelystad
Posts: 2039

difficult starting. I am confused.

My 2003 90 td5 suddenly starts difficult sometimes.

The full story, Some parts may or may not be applicable.

Setup:

I have 2 batteries a big one from a D3 and an old style optima red Top. Connected together with a relay that is operated by a voltage sensing piece of electronics.
The Big battery is connected with the Alternator, starting motor and the winch, the rest off the car is connected to the Optima.

The relais will close when the big battery get a voltage above 13V and will disconnect below 11V. SO while winching the Optima will supply the car and the engine will not stop because the ECU will have a too low voltage.

Symptoms:

We were on holiday and the day before we left I fuelled up in Germany and after a long night off heavy rain we decided that we would go home so I tried starting my 90 td5 and it didn't really want to start. It lloked like the glow system didn't work. After some tries I got it running, first seconds it run a little rough but after it was good. Loaded all camping gear and it started again, not easy but it started.

Normally it starts directly

Drove home 400 km without taking the risk off stopping.

next day it started almost as normal and I fuelled up where I normally fill-up. A few days later I went to my mother 175km one way. It had some difficulty starting in the morning but after that no problem.

Last Thursday I put my 90 inside as I changed my rear diff. (my Detroit locker started misbehaving a little so I put a normal on in) After that a short test drive. no problem. Starting like normal.

In the evening I wanted to go I didn't want to start. I had to get my wifes car to go.

What I noticed:

It looks like the glow system doesn't work.
However mesuring voltages on both sides off the glow relais I see the relais works and noticed that power goes to the glow plugs while waiting on the glowlight to go off and when I try to start the power to the glow plugs is cut and directly after I release the ignition key the power comes back for a short while.
Is this normal behavior??

my old style nanocom gave the following error codes:
10-08 glowplug relay
19-07 noisy crank signal

After clearing them once they didn't come back even after more failed starts.

I checked an old glow plug that gives me 0.4 Ohm resistance the 4 glowplugs in the 5 cylinder engine that I could find

all gave 0.7 Ohm. So no open circuit so I think they are still OK. These were replaced a few years ago.

With the Nanocom I can send power to the glowplugs but very short. Too short for my voltmeter to give a real voltage but I can see something is coming. On the relais side I get around 11 V.

While starting I get about 250 rpm on my Nanocom. It sounds like how it did before.

I checked the cranck sensor plug and it looked good. My 90 had some swimming lessons and because off that and some damage it was a write off. So I always first check connectors.
When it runs the idle rpm according to Nanocom is fluctuating only 5 rpm so I think that is OK

I changed the battery seperation wiring so the batteries will be connected directely when the ignition is on. It looks like it helps a little but not completely. However I need to do a cold check in the morning to know more

So what can it be?
It looks like the glowing system is not working however I can't find a fault.
The crank signal cannot be that bad as when it starts it runs fine.
Could it be bad fuel? I used almost all the "bad"fuel driving home and I have filled up twice after that.

It starts sometimes like normal and sometimes very difficult.
So I don't know on the moment.

. Roel

1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001)
1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009)
2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts.
2003 90 Td5 (2009-now)

6th Sep 2020 7:33pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7686

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

glow plugs or not it will still eventually start. Just more cracking when cold.

Sounds more like a fuel issue to me.

Any different to the way its parked.. nose up or down. Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop

6th Sep 2020 8:06pm

roel

Member Since: 08 Aug 2009
Location: Lelystad
Posts: 2039

Old picture but there is no real up or down.

Click image to enlarge

There is a lot off smoke when it starts after difficult starting. Roel

1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001)
1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009)
2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts.
2003 90 Td5 (2009-now)

6th Sep 2020 8:28pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7686

Lots of smoke says not fuel then. Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop

6th Sep 2020 8:43pm

roel

Member Since: 08 Aug 2009
Location: Lelystad
Posts: 2039

Is not glowing while cranking normal? To reduce battery load maybe? Roel

1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001)
1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009)
2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts.
2003 90 Td5 (2009-now)

6th Sep 2020 8:56pm

landy andy

Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5420

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver

Assume there is no noise from the fuel system when trying to start? Have you tried using the fuel priming procedure before starting? Thinking could be the injector washers.

Another thought is that sometimes the starter motor can cause electrical feedback (not the correct term) that stops the ecu from sending the correct messages to the engine. I’m sure an adult can explain that better.

Only other easy things are clean crank sensor, and fit new fuel filter.

6th Sep 2020 10:42pm

4RF RDS

Member Since: 19 Jul 2015
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 898

2000 Defender 110 Td5 XS CSW Epsom Green

Suggest fuel filter change first before anything else. Sounds like a fuelling issue from what you describe. Perhaps injector seals? Have you plugged it in to see if any codes are up? 2010 Range Rover MkIII Autobiography Super Charged (Idris)
2003 Range Rover Mk III (Desmond FitzWilliam)
2000 Defender 110 CSW TD5 (CTX)
1992 Range Rover Classic (Lizzy)
1972 Series III 300 Tdi (Stanwood)
1967 MGB GT

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

7th Sep 2020 4:26am

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16878

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

I can't remember for sure how the Td5 starting protocol works, but I presume that there must be a camshaft position sensor (in addition to the crankshaft position sensor) to let the ECU determine if the engine is on the compression or exhaust stroke when the crankshaft sensor indicates TDC. Usually the camshaft sensor is only referenced during start-up, since once the engine is running it knows which of the two pulses per cycle from the crankshaft sensor is which, so no longer needs further referencing. Is it possible that your camshaft sensor or the associated connector is faulty?

roel wrote:
... while winching the Optima will supply the car and the engine will not stop because the ECU will have a too low voltage.

Some time ago I was having the usual Td5 alternator issues on my Disco2, and during the course of a journey the alternator failed completely resulting in me driving home on battery power alone. I happened to have a Nanocom connected at the time, so (until it shut down) was able to see what was happening at different voltages as the vehicle progressively died. I can't remember the crucial voltages any more (I did write it up somewhere on the forum) but it was interesting that the ECU was the last to go, and the engine kept running long after I thought it would have cut out - progressively the radio, the wipers, the indicators, the instrument pack, the Nanocom, just about everything stopped working, but the motor kept running. It was very strange driving what was effectively an electrically-dead vehicle but with the fuel pump and injectors still working. I can only assume that in those days LR engineers still put a lot of thought into how the vehicle should behave under extreme failure conditions.

I wonder what the 2020 Def would do without an alternator....

7th Sep 2020 10:36am

4RF RDS

Member Since: 19 Jul 2015
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 898

That is good info to know! Thanks for sharing

2010 Range Rover MkIII Autobiography Super Charged (Idris)
2003 Range Rover Mk III (Desmond FitzWilliam)
2000 Defender 110 CSW TD5 (CTX)
1992 Range Rover Classic (Lizzy)
1972 Series III 300 Tdi (Stanwood)
1967 MGB GT

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.
H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)

7th Sep 2020 11:23am

MadTom

Member Since: 10 Sep 2013
Location: Olomouc
Posts: 575

TD5 has not any cam shaft sensor, only on crank shaft sensor. And TD5 ECU has 2 supply voltage dependent work states - it can work with very low voltage compared to standard 12V, this is mainly for engine starting.

TD5 engine was gesigned for use on offroad car, not modiffied for it. "Drobek" = The Small One - Discovery 2, "Blufínek" = The Blue Thing - Defender 130, and for me at least Ford Mondeo

7th Sep 2020 1:21pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7686

I still believe its fueling related not electical, supply seems OK if you get clouds of smoke on start up so looking like timing or fuel arriving at wrong time, or inconsistent fuel supply, cracked filter head, pump problems, regulator issue? Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop

7th Sep 2020 2:34pm

roel

Member Since: 08 Aug 2009
Location: Lelystad
Posts: 2039

@ Blackwolf, I had an altenator failing while playing off-road for a long weekend. Off-course it failed the first day. I was charging during the night and while we were having lunch. On the last day I quit a liitle early to go charging for my 200 km drive home with a trailer with the lightweight from on off my friends.

I almost made it, and after your story I made have made it. But about 30 km from home I lost my rev counter, that was the first thing that stopped working. We stopped at the first fuel station. We took a battery from one off the other 4x4's on one off the traillers and connected that battery with jumper cables to my batteries. Obiously it wouldn't crank on it's own so one off friends put his car and trailler in front of my 90 with trailler and pulled me to start my engine.
It was fun and the most funny thing was the looks off other people at the petrol station.

Click image to enlarge
Different time but same group. Not all on the picture.

@ jst. It might be a fuel problem. Priming might have helped to start this morning. It was not perfect but started better then on very bad moments. Once it started the first time all other tries today were perfect starts without priming. So more test to do. It was warmer this morning then the days before.

Question about primiing: I know the procedure, put it on ignition and pump the throttle a few times and then the engine light starts blinking.
I normally after changing the fuel filter prime it and when the pump shuts down I start the engine. But this time as I was measuring voltages I was a little late and noticed that the pump runs for about a minute and then shuts down for about 10 seconds and runs for a minute again. Is this a normal procedure?
What is the difference from just switching on ignition as the pumps runs also for about a minute and then shuts down.

My fuel pump was changed last year on my way on holiday so I expect and hope that the pump will not be the problem.

I changed my regulator in 2010 when it was leaking, It's not leaking now. Roel

1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001)
1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009)
2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts.
2003 90 Td5 (2009-now)

7th Sep 2020 6:23pm

benniferj

Member Since: 20 Oct 2016
Location: Basingstoke
Posts: 361

If I were you I'd put the winch on a separate battery and the rest of the car on the main one. Is there a chance that your ECU is on the Optima which is running flat for some reason (you said its an old one!)
Ive never known of anyone to split the starter motor and alt feeds away from the rest of the vehicle... normally its accessories on batt2 Insta: @thebenjordan4x4

7th Sep 2020 8:02pm

roel

Member Since: 08 Aug 2009
Location: Lelystad
Posts: 2039

But you are not me.

I don't do what everybody else does because everybody else does that. I do most things for a reason (as explained) and some for fun.

My first Idea was indeed that my Optima was bad so I changed the programming off the electronics so now the batteries directly connect together when the ignition is on.

And I don't see your point of having the starter motor on the same battery as the rest of the car? What is the benefit of that if you have 2 good batteries?

Currently I am convinced the batteries are not my starting problem. Roel

1984 90 2.5 na Diesel - RR V8 (1994-2001)
1997 Camel Trophy Discovery 300TDI (2001-2009)
2005 G4 Discovery III 4.4 V8 (2008-2018) It's gone but it still hurts.
2003 90 Td5 (2009-now)

7th Sep 2020 9:41pm

jst

Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7686

when priming it runs for a lot longer than a minute. if you pull the pump could just be muck in the tank filter?

i dont think its electirical Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop

7th Sep 2020 9:59pm

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