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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green
GEMS Rover v8 with a manual transmission

Today was supposed to be a glorious day of bolting the engine and gearbox into the chassis to really get things moving towards completion of the 110 rebuild.

I had the ACR 4.8 engine waiting ready to go, still in its transit wrapping to avoid it getting dirty:


Click image to enlarge


The chassis and engine mounts are all cleaned and painted, ready to go. I then turned the engine round to start fitting the clutch, to find one of these monstrosities bolted to the back of it:


Click image to enlarge



This is I believe a 'flex plate' assembly for an automatic transmission, and entirely unsuitable for my R380 box.

While this is an inconvenience, its should not be the end of the world, I just need to acquire a suitable manual transmission flywheel, and motor on, right?

Well... What on earth do I do about the reluctor ring on the back which the GEMS ECU requires to know the position of the crank sensor?


Click image to enlarge



Click image to enlarge




Land Rover built manual transmissions with the R380 and a ECU controlled Rover v8, at least in the Discovery 2 as I used to have a work colleague who had one. What I don't know is if it was running the GEMS ECU at the time.

Is there a manual flywheel available with a reluctor ring on the back? Or have I screwed up big style with these parts? 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #838375 19th Jun 2020 9:50pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Hmm... Further internet research suggests that there were both a Discovery, P38 and Defender, all of which used a GEMS engine Rover v8 with a manual variant.

Part number ERR5396 seems to be a kit, but is unavailable on Jag/LandRover classic website:
https://parts.jaguarlandroverclassic.com/e...e=L7G02095

But, part 611323 is available, and is a lot cheaper:
https://parts.jaguarlandroverclassic.com/6...e=L7G02095


The problem is - I don't see what the difference between those two items are. The first is listed as:

"Flywheel engine"

The second as:

"Gear ring flywheel engine"


Anyone care to speculate on what the difference is please? 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #838382 19th Jun 2020 10:16pm
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under_rover



Member Since: 02 Apr 2013
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 140

2002 Defender 110 Td5 SW Oslo Blue

I think the 611323 is just the starter ring gear, as opposed to the whole shebang Cheers
Laurie

90 rebuild thread - https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic62909.html

Post #838420 20th Jun 2020 8:36am
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Ah... that would explain the price discrepancy. Well pants... This project is stopped in its tracks until I locate a suitable flywheel then. 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #838457 20th Jun 2020 10:54am
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VVS210



Member Since: 12 Nov 2016
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 925

United Kingdom 

Disco 2 V8s are all Thor (Bosch Motronic) not GEMS, early P38s were GEMS but later ones were also Thor.

There is a guy on eBay who breaks P38s it might be worth looking him out & getting in touch to see what he has or at least to picks his brains?

Just looked him up, no connections with the guy but he has 100% positive feedback on 6,111 reviews which says a lot to me!

Seller name is east-coast-range-rovers.

Post #838494 20th Jun 2020 12:48pm
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Lodelaner



Member Since: 04 Feb 2010
Location: Hungerford
Posts: 465

United Kingdom 1988 Defender 90 V8 Petrol ST Shire Blue

Ouch! Very solvable, but this is going to cost.

P38 manual flywheel (ERR5396) includes the reluctor ring. You will also need to change the crank sensor to ERR6357 which is different to the auto.


Click image to enlarge



Unfortunately the flywheel is dual mass, so avoid second hand. They’ve invariably been removed for a reason.

New flywheels we’re £600 plus last time I checked. eBay was £400 for second hand which is a false economy.

The ECU will need to know it’s a manual as well.

You may need to fit a brass spigot bush as well into the end of the crank - this is the case for older V8 auto/man conversions so it may be the case for GEMS. JB

@Lodelaner Instagram

Youtube greenlaning and other LR related content

Post #838543 20th Jun 2020 5:38pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

Thank you for the information gentlemen. I have managed to find a couple of the flywheels on ebay, one looks pretty rough, and the other the guy is asking over £600 for, which does seem a bit on the steep side for a used part.

I'll contact east-coast-range-rovers VVS210 if I don't manage to find a new one. My suspicion is that they are no longer available from Land Rover - I'll find out on Monday with a bit of ringing around.

How sure are you Widget that they were dual mass on the p38? The information I found indicated that all the Rover v8's used a single mass flywheel, which would make sense given its an 8 cylinder engine.

I wonder how I tell the ECU its using a manual :/ Time to contact Roland at ACR I think. 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #838574 20th Jun 2020 8:08pm
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Lodelaner



Member Since: 04 Feb 2010
Location: Hungerford
Posts: 465

United Kingdom 1988 Defender 90 V8 Petrol ST Shire Blue

My memory isn’t what it used to be - dual mass is only diesel 😊 JB

@Lodelaner Instagram

Youtube greenlaning and other LR related content

Post #838598 20th Jun 2020 9:29pm
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mikeh501



Member Since: 07 Jan 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 990

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 90 V8 Petrol SW Alpine White

Had exactly all these shenanigans with my v8 r380 conversion. The gems flywheels are literally like rocking horse s&^%$ and you will pay for the priveledge.

Your other option which when you add the costs can be more cost effective is a 3rd party ECU like megasquirt or emerald etc. This uses a VR sensor and trigger wheel on the crank pulley. You can then just any v8 flywheel Thumbs Up

Post #839206 23rd Jun 2020 7:33pm
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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10115

United Kingdom 

I’d drop Roland an email and quiz him, you’ve spent enough money.... ask me how I know Laughing

If no luck, try Dave Ashcroft instagram @v8_scumbag

Post #839228 23rd Jun 2020 8:36pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

I have thanks Greeni, and he's managed to locate one somewhere (hopefully not that dodgy one on ebay!). Maybe he can skim the face of a used one to make it look shiny and new again Smile

Fingers crossed it all pans out... 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #839359 24th Jun 2020 12:16pm
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Hufflepuff



Member Since: 25 Oct 2014
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 562

England 2005 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Tonga Green

mikeh501 wrote:
Had exactly all these shenanigans with my v8 r380 conversion. The gems flywheels are literally like rocking horse s&^%$ and you will pay for the priveledge.

Your other option which when you add the costs can be more cost effective is a 3rd party ECU like megasquirt or emerald etc. This uses a VR sensor and trigger wheel on the crank pulley. You can then just any v8 flywheel Thumbs Up



Yeah I did look at that - but I'm reluctant as I've already paid for a mapped GEMS ECU - all ready just to "plug in". Switching ECUs would have been a real last gasp resolution, thankfully it looks like things are getting on track again Smile 2005 Td5 90 XS
1989 V8 110 CSW

Post #839360 24th Jun 2020 12:18pm
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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10115

United Kingdom 

There was no 'plug-in' option when I built mine, I had to figure it all myself...

Then when I had, turned out the ECU was still immobilised...took me weeks to figure that out. instagram @v8_scumbag

Post #839369 24th Jun 2020 12:59pm
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Shroppy



Member Since: 25 Feb 2016
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 563

United Kingdom 1986 Defender 130 V8 Petrol HCPU Aintree Green

I'm going down the same route as you with, a 4.6 and an R380. My friend who happens to be a tuning specialist suggested that the best option would be to remove the trigger ring from a flex plate and, send that along with a suitable flywheel (I'll send the larger, range rover one I have here for more torque) to have it skimmed and, the flexplate riveted on in the correct position. From memory, he suggested V8 developments would be the best option for the above work. 1985 127 V8 Build Thread
Series 1 80"
Series 1 88" 4x2 Build Thread

Post #839380 24th Jun 2020 2:31pm
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GREENI



Member Since: 22 Aug 2010
Location: staffs
Posts: 10115

United Kingdom 

I forgot to ask the obvious question....

Why not go auto?
My Ashcroft 'monster' box is the dogs doodahs. instagram @v8_scumbag

Post #839396 24th Jun 2020 3:39pm
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