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custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19578

Clutch noises

Well, yesterday coming home I found I had a strange noise when changing gear like a kind of grinding noise when the clutch is disengaged between gears.
Just yesterday morning I was thinking how good she has been running lately.

When in gear no problem,, but it is more difficult to select a gear all of a sudden.
On investigation today, I find this noise appears when the clutch is all the way down at its lowest point of disengagement but silent in neutral, and no sign of clatter if clutch is up and in neutral on engine shut down.
I investigated the clutch fluid level, and to my surprise it was practically empty only a bit wet in the bottom.

I had a look for leaks, and there is no sign of gearbox leaks of master cylinder leaks that I can see of significance.

I am hoping it is not the clutch release bearing…

Is it possible that the clutch needs bleeding? I have topped it up with approximate spec Dot 4 as luckily I had some to hand anyway.
But the noise is still there, and as I said with engine running I have noticed it at the very bottom of clutch pedal travel.

Is it possible that there is a partial air lock and air bubbles in the system?

It does sound to me around the drivers side sort of area Master Cylinder kind of area, after topping it up I just wen tout t]for a half mile drive around the block but it was much the same but seemed a little better.

Any suggestions?
I definitely have noticed with engine idling that it happens at a particular point almost with clutch fully down all the way.
It doesn’t do it at idle, with clutch up in neutral and in gear seems fine.
Though selecting gears is more difficult especially first and second.
Clutch fluid is dark what was left of it, which is bi-annually serviced but no signs of leaks anywhere that I could see.

I’m thinking it would make sense to bleed it first, or will it self bleed over time?
The clutch feels fine it’s self like normal, I think it may have injected air possibly due to fluid level.
Coming back that day the village I came back through has a lot of steep inclines and gear changes, and with the fluid level that low that maybe culprit.
There is not any signs of clutch slip or anything like im aware of nor any death rattle on engine shut off.
The clutch it’s self has done just about 44k.

Ideas welcome. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧

13th Mar 2022 5:10pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4405

Remind us what era Defender you have custom90steve?

13th Mar 2022 5:16pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19578

07 2.4 Puma.

Clutch was replaced for genuine in 2014 @ 44k approx. Now at 88k. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧

13th Mar 2022 6:38pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4405

Well on a Puma you do not have a clutch fork which is one less linkage to worry about. It does sound like a release bearing and on the Puma the release bearing and slave cylinder are one unit.

If I were you I would give the hydraulic system good flush through keeping an eye out for any leaks and see if that restores the gearbox movement. If not then you know it has to be either the master cylinder or slave cylinder (and bearing).

Do the flush first and see if it improves. Then go from there...

13th Mar 2022 7:04pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19578

I do have the workshop manual but the clutch bleeding isn’t a job that I’ve done before, I did suspect that the slave / release bearing maybe suspect hence mentioning the latter.
The clutch it’s self is fine, there isn’t any slip or death rattle on shut down and bite is fine as expected.
Considering the clutch fluid was that low almost empty, I think that’s suspect and as you say, that’s going to be linked with the slave + release bearing or master cylinder.

The sound it makes is like roller / ball bearings that are shot and dried out, and occurs only with clutch pressed down almost near the lowest point of travel.
So basically like a dry bearing rubbing.

Will report back in due course, probably next week at some point.

Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧

13th Mar 2022 8:39pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19578

Well the noise went, got her fully bled today and the fluid was black as ink. (Seals going).
Now fresh dot4 just for now..
Got pressure back and a good pedal, but after I went out locally it did it again once hot and couldn’t get her in a gear etc but got home again just about.
So now I can rule out air in the line and or moisture with the fluid.
So leaves the master and slave as culprits, I’m going to see if the master solves it first but failing that it’ll have to be the slave as well.
I’ve got a new genuine MC and parts, it’s done 88k and 14yrs or so but slave half that.
Down the line I may as well get the slave but hoping MC May do the trick for now but you never know.
The slave is quite common so will have to see.

There’s no doubt the MC is the end of its life anyway at the age that it is, so worth changing it.

Will update again in due course. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧

24th Mar 2022 9:27pm

Co1

Member Since: 19 Aug 2018
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3616

I can recommend replacing with the LOF master cylinder if you haven’t bought one yet. Makes a huge difference.

24th Mar 2022 9:32pm

geobloke

Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4405

Good plan swapping out the MC. Let us know if it solves the problem

I do not know what the difference is in the materials being used for clutch seals, but is it my imagination or are they degrading quicker than in previous decades? The fluid in Miffy turns dark very quickly requiring more frequent flushes with new DOT4.

Weird and possibly my imagination

25th Mar 2022 12:40pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19578

You’re correct. A Google search shows up the same on motorbike forums and all sorts of the same nature.
Much of it being Chinese rubber, it also seems commonly more brittle as well. Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧

25th Mar 2022 5:34pm

custom90

Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19578

Update on this, the new MC has done the trick. I fitted the new one myself and copied over the pedal setting from the old one to the new one to avoid having to mess around with pedal adjustment and it’s pretty much spot on. (Used my micrometer to measure between end of thread to back of lock nuts and checked fixings were the same size and took a photo of it also).
Coped it over to the new MC and pedal setting was good.

The old MC was well worn and the seals were bad, the main plunger seal was actually chamfered and tapered.
I have a feeling after looking at it that the old MC was internally leaking.
Possibly the valve leaking and retuning fluid, maybe partially.
(I will take a better look at it when I’m at a loose end to see where the old MC failed, when that will be I don’t know but one day I will. Currently, I’ve only taken a quick look at it).

I have gravity bled it with the new one but I think it could do with a pressure bleed really.
Does anyone know what psi LR recommend for a pressure bleed?

I have a feeling no more than 10psi but I could be wrong. (I couldn’t see anything in the WSM unless I missed it?).

I’m hoping once pressure bled it will be all good then, if not it’ll be the slave but will keep me going for now anyway. So far I think if pressure bled I think it will be fine as it’s not losing pressure, but needs pressure bleeding).

At least now I can drive her and all is well, and can get to an Indy and around without needing a flatbed.

Diesel$ Live$ Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️ RED, WHITE & BOOST! 🇬🇧

20th Apr 2022 10:35pm

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