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Alphabear

Member Since: 11 Oct 2015
Location: South Wales
Posts: 51

2015 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Scotia Grey

Muddybigdog wrote:
Compare the dogs that were shown and won their classes 100 years ago to those on show and won their classes this year, some look like different breeds even though they are meant to have the same standard. The kennel club and some of the breeding fraternity have a lot to answer.

Agreed, but many breeds have initiatives which have been trying for years to reduce hereditary problems. In my breed, before I would even dream to consider a dog for breeding they would have undergone 4 veterinary health tests as well as being selected for temperament and type. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water because that's what responsible breeders will be doing. In every walk of life there are bad pennies and the dog world has more than its fair share unfortunately.

15th Mar 2016 10:33pm

mick

Member Since: 08 Feb 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 2109

2010 Defender 130 Puma 2.4 HCPU Rimini Red

Alphabear wrote:
mick wrote:
It was a good dog that won but the Gordon setter was a proper dog Imo

Yes it might have been but it was a shame that the Group Judge was the sister of the breeder. Only in the dog world😒

Aye but it's the same in everything always has been some folk could show a 3 legged donkey and still win the best Cockerill n class, I've never liked the showing lot

15th Mar 2016 10:42pm

jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

So,in 2010 KC recognized GSD had a problem (there are videos going back as far as 2008) with their rear ends,6 years later,nothing has changed,in fact it's got worse,where are the so called breed clubs??The GSD breed club seems to be typically ineffectual and uncaring,almost as bad as the King Charles Spaniel breed club,or the British bulldog breed club,just to mention a few.
FWIW the BVA (British Veterinary Association),happily advises what health tests should used before breeding (which goes way above and beyond what KC recommend and NOT enforced)..
A video from 2010;

Also KC expressed surprise that this years winner,er, won!!
A video discussing this years GSD "winner" that was blocked by er,the Kennel club (ch4).

The video says it is blocked in "your country",would be nice to hear from our foreign members who can actually view the video! Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

17th Mar 2016 5:00pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5034

2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Scotia Grey

Rickydodah wrote:
Quote:
the one organisation that is supposed to be "for" dogs and is the only reason these dogs are like this is the kennel club!!!!
they set the breed standard !!!! should be abolished!!!

This is entirely correct. The KC in my opinion has become as misguided (nearly said corrupt) as the RSPCA with the wellbeing of the dogs becoming secondary. Recently they started to advocate the breeding of non registered dogs with those registered to try and widen the gene pool of some breeds which have been badly affected by breeding to the KC standard. This simply doesn't seem to be happening as the KC don't appear to have radically rewritten those standards. Their byword fit for function will only come about when the standards return to what the dogs represented originally.

Totally agree and with what you have said on both organisations.

The KC is awful - their rules are designed to screw the breeds not promote and strengthen the breeds - i wont have our SS registered our collies wont either - it does mean (again stupidly) they cant do many trials that require KC registration, but i think sensible registered/non registered breeding should be encouraged and allowing them to be registered all the rules are not only silly but dangerous.

Welsh SS pools are getting dangerously small now for example Mike

17th Mar 2016 6:19pm

Alphabear

Member Since: 11 Oct 2015
Location: South Wales
Posts: 51

I don't quite follow which rules you think are silly or dangerous. Guidelines in place to encourage breeders to only use health screened dogs in a breeding program are there to protect the breeds and to avoid heartache to puppy buyers.

My gripe with the KC is that they are too lenient with backyard breeders who use the KC registered tag to lure innocent people to pay serious money when the dogs are often poorly bred and raised with no care or attention to health issues.

there is some serious money in dog breeding and for that reason it attracts bad apples and then there are the sort of people who breed this GSD who can't see what is wrong with their own dog because they are Kennel Blindjk,o. It is going to take an outright ban of showing GSDs to make them sit up and take notice.

17th Mar 2016 7:45pm

jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

Ooh! Looksy what a breed club did to someone who dared speak out against known issues.Not just KC then is it,but breeders AND breed clubs.

"It was claimed in PDE that Cavalier King Charles Spaniels suffer from syringomyelia (SM) and heart disease. Three weeks after the programme, the Cavalier Club expelled breed health representative Margaret Carter, voting 204 to 31, in a Special General Meeting for revealing the SM condition of a show dog in the first programme. The reason for this expulsion was that the club's code of ethics forbade anyone from saying anything detrimental about the breed, the club or breeders. Ms Carter stated, "It was always said that talking about health ruins the breed, so as far as they were concerned I had ruined the breed". A club for pet owners of cavaliers has since been set up.
The British Veterinary Association (BVA) and KC recently launched MRI screening scheme for Syringomyelia (SM). Results will be published on the KC website to allow buyers to know if breeders are using scanned dogs. Some influential breeders don't want the results to be made public and refuse to support the scheme. The KC will not make the tests mandatory without the support of individual breed clubs".
Linksy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dog...e_Years_On Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

17th Mar 2016 8:26pm

mse

Member Since: 06 Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5034

The dangerous and silly initially surrounding breed standards that actively seek to make dogs unwell and nothing like they were/are or should be, promoting "pretty" but not practical features, to then continue:
- the fact they actively allow in-breeding (also because in some gene pools are so small now),
- how a few key players have so much sway that things are overlooked such as to continue the bread to their standard,
- the fact they dont allow puppies/dogs of KC registered dogs mated with "pure" but unregistered dogs in to the KC, despite them being correct, working etc in every way and support more diversity in the pool
- the fact they are engaged in genetic manipulation under a veil of removing disease, but actual enhancing deformity and increasing diseases - again all linked to a breed standard
- the fact KC laughably think they do the most for animal welfare - but only in the club all others arent worthy and arent seen as such

I could probably go on...but the KC is one of the worst animal groups going and they should be ashamed

(as a point of order i have direct experience of ESS, Collies, WSS and a few other pedigree dogs)

The KC desire to blame breeders is not the issue

Incidental screened healthy dogs is important and responsible - however, i dont believe the KC do much about that either. Further there are backyard breeders who i would much prefer a dog from than a few KC registered ones i can think of. Mike

17th Mar 2016 8:29pm

Alphabear

Member Since: 11 Oct 2015
Location: South Wales
Posts: 51

Yes but the KC is nowadays a commercial organisation so is run like that earning big money from registrations. They have some influence on health matters and run the hip and elbow schemes with the BVA and other breed specific health tests. However the breed clubs are the guardians of the breed and suggest and agree the standard with the KC, breeding ethics are set by the KC but often the breed clubs will be even stricter. I don't believe everything from pedigree dogs exposed but if true about CKCS then the breed club needs a shake up unless the enhire breed is mad.

If you look at the standard for the GSD it's hard to see how that dog would be worthy of representing the breed in the group. This was confirmed in the interview which has been blocked now. I suspect it at have been removed as action is being considered by someone. The KC represented by Caroline Cisko said that they could take away Ccs from the breed. I think that would set a good precedent. As for the vet?!

There is a reason you cant breed a registered with an unregistered dog of course. How do you prove an unregistered dog is as you say pure? There have been instances in some breeds where crosses have been allowed to boost the gene pool or to eradicate health issues so it's posible when essential.

Off to see the dogs, homebred, health tested beyond KC recommendations, KC reg I'm afraid😀

17th Mar 2016 9:35pm

jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

KC have also admitted to instructing CH4 to drop the controversial GSD footage.Which also goes against CH4 own so called "independent broadcasting" guidelines.Of course, some people still wont believe it

. Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

17th Mar 2016 10:22pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Alphabear wrote:
You won't read about the good stuff, only the things which get headlines. I see none cares to comment about the wonderful best in show Westie for example.

I would have posted a good news story but the Weimaraner didn't make it past the Group Stage - I blame the alphabet and W coming so far down it that the judge must have got bored

18th Mar 2016 4:40pm

jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

Apparently,this is from GSD facewash page,I dunno,don't do Facewash,lol.
Re GSD Best of Breed at Crufts 2016

*The GSD League condemns most strongly the manner in which the Kennel Club and the Crufts presenters have created public hysteria regarding the German Shepherd Bitch who gained Best of Breed at Crufts 2016 under breed specialist judge, Davy Hall.

With complete disregard for all of the many breed specialist judges, including highly regarded judges from the breed’s country of origin, that have awarded this bitch top honours at both Kennel Club and WUSV shows, the Channel 4 coverage acted as judge, jury and hangman without any balance of reporting.

Cruaghaire Catoria is a correct type to the German Shepherd Dog standard, she has a KC/BVA hip score of 13 and elbow score of 0. She is a fit, healthy, family dog.

The judge, Davy Hall, of the Gayville’s GSDs kennels has been an exhibitor and breeder of GSDs for many years having bred, owned, trained and handled many top winning animals and Champions including the current breed CC record holder.

After being awarded Best of Breed, Catoria was then passed by the appointed Crufts vet to certify that she was fit and healthy to enter the big ring. She had passed another vet health check 6 months earlier. Indeed, no GSD has ever failed a vet health test at a Championship Show since they were introduced as part of the KC’s Breed Watch.

German Shepherd Dogs are generally shown outside and certainly very few have ever experienced anything like the Crufts Best In Show ring. This young bitch performed extremely well in her breed ring but shortly afterwards in the main arena became overwhelmed by the environment and did not show her true beauty or proper movement, she was not the only dog to react badly to the pressure of the situation. Her internationally renowned handler Craig Rice, who has handled at the top level for many years, explained what took place in the lead up to the group judging and in the main arena….

After a foot perfect performance in the GSD Breed ring, where Tori gained Best of Breed in a high quality entry that included 2 VA rated Dogs, we were taken to do the KC appointed Vet Check. The Vet stated that there was absolutely no possible reason that he could not pass Tori as she showed no signs of bad health and her movement was not impaired in any way. This test included movement of the dog.

After a long wait of over 3 hours, which includes numerous forced photo shoots in the Crufts Best of Breed collection ring, we were finally abruptly told we would be entering the main Arena. This is a situation that no owner, trainer or handler can prepare for. A packed auditorium with hot lights, music, loud speakers and constant cheers and clapping is not an everyday occurrence for any dog. Unfortunately, after a further wait whilst inside the Arena, Tori had become quite agitated. I had tried to calm her by allowing her move around a little but was repeatedly told that I must not let the dog move at all. By the time we were judged Tori was in a high level of distress and was struggling to cope with the situation, which seemed to worsen after the judges rough handling, whilst checking the teeth, of a clearly stressed dog. Tori’s uncharacteristic erratic behaviour has clearly given a bad impression of what I consider a GSD of the highest standard in both construction and health test results.

German Shepherd Breeders lead the World in their attention to health testing and breeding selection and whilst they must not be complacent about any exaggerations in conformation or temperament, the breed should not be victimised in this way by the Kennel Club, the media and social media.

German Shepherd exhibitors have a viable alternative to Kennel Club shows and it is of no surprise that more and more are turning their back on traditional UK shows in favour of the WUSV style show where DNA recording, identification and health tests are pre-requisites, not afterthoughts. All dogs are graded and critiqued so that their owners and breeders are given a clear picture of what they need to do to improve in the next generation. This is a great responsibility for the judges who are trained to a high level and have to have considerable experience as breeders before they are approved.

The GSD League will continue to strive to consult with the Kennel Club on matters regarding health of the GSD and hope that our suggestion of piloting compulsory identification of all exhibits, health testing prior to confirmation of Champion title and mandatory minimum health test requirements for all breeding animals will one day become a reality.

German Shepherd Dog League

www.gsdleague.co.uk

www.gsdl-brg.co.uk

www.gsdleague-workingbranch.com

#473Dogloverlou, Mar 14, 2016
Firedog

[b]* Ironically,it really wasn't the KC or Crufts (one and the same) that caused the outrage..it was the KC who TRIED to cover it up.It was GENUINE dog owners that expressed concern.[/b]But is typical of breeders clubs and their breeders,i guess. Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

21st Mar 2016 4:31pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

So in the handlers own words the dog was in a a highly distressed state and yet he continued...

21st Mar 2016 6:56pm

jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

/\/\ lets not blame the handler,the breeder is on record as being entirely 100% ignorant. Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

21st Mar 2016 7:00pm

jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

Hey peace and love,
&list=PLDFB6ABA5749AD00F&index=10 Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

21st Mar 2016 7:21pm

jimbob7

Member Since: 06 Jul 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 2055

Also a "secret" letter from the KC to their members,trying to downplay their members behaviour..

Dear Fellow Member

I thought it appropriate to give you a brief update on a number of issues prior to our Annual General Meeting (AGM) on 17th May.

Firstly, I would like to reflect on Crufts 2016 which, barring one or two 'breed specific' issues, which will be addressed by the Board in the coming weeks, I believe was a quite marvellous event with many highlights, and expertly delivered by both Gerald King and Vanessa McAlpine, and their respective teams. With over 160,000 visitors and a peak television viewing audience of almost three million people, more than in any previous year, I felt that the NEC staff, our press and media teams performed with great credit.

We enjoyed a very successful 'royal' visit on Saturday, 12th March and I can report that our President, Prince Michael of Kent, in the company of Princess Michael, thoroughly enjoyed the time they spent with us.

Everyone who participated will have their own highlights but I wanted to share my top three with you. Together with my wife, Pauline, we attended the Junior Handling Association's International dinner prior to the competition the following day. At this dinner, each of the 45 competitors from 45 different countries took the microphone and spoke about themselves, their pride and pleasure in being at Crufts and wished each other the very best of luck in the competition – “eye watering”, I can assure you. Secondly, the sight of 9 year old Lauren Bridges on taking Group 4 in the Pastoral Group with her Samoyed and then marching forward to congratulate those in front of her was memorable. I would suggest these two events themselves give us great hope for the future. Thirdly, the many 'activity' events which adorn the arena, the YKC arena, and elsewhere for what seems like an eternity, cannot go unmentioned. Whilst 'Pudsey's' win in the medium-sized dog agility championship brought me special pleasure, there was a host of other top level competition which was not only mouth-watering in its content but ran like clockwork.
Last but not least, on the many miles I walked around the rings 'our shop floor' over the four days, I neither overheard nor received a negative comment. Everyone appeared very upbeat and we should all seek to build on this.

Beyond Crufts, I am delighted to report that the Kennel Club has 'exchanged and completed' on the Aylesbury property project and 'exchanged' with a view to near term 'completion' on the Emblehope property project. The Chepstow project is progressing and will be presented to the members via the Board at an appropriate time.

The working parties are progressing and the Governance working party, supported by the Board, is set to make a number of proposals to the membership at the AGM. It is proposed that this working party will continue its work in the months to come with a renewed agenda aimed at advancing both the business and 'sporting' sides of Kennel Club activity.

The Communications working party continues to 'move things forward' on the back of consultation and review through 'focus groups' and you will be updated on progress at the AGM. Likewise, the 'Crossbreeds' working party is making slower but steady progress on a range of issues, and again you will be briefed in May.

We had advised you at our November meeting that we would be bringing proposals to the membership in May regarding a possible revision to our membership structure in the context of 'out of town membership'. I can advise you that these proposals will not be brought forward at the May meeting but deferred for discussion later in 2016 since the Board considered that every effort should be focussed by the members on the proposed Governance changes.

I do hope that as many Members as possible will be able to attend the AGM and in the meantime, enjoy the Spring! Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5.

24th Mar 2016 3:35pm

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