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fatduckling

Member Since: 31 Dec 2021
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8

Need help with hill starts with anti-stalls

Hi

I have a 2011 Defender 110 which I use as my main vehicle 1-2 times a week. It's my first car and I don't do any off-roading with it. I've been driving it for a year, and have had no issues with hill climbs because the car has lot of torque in first gear and the roads are fairly flat around my area in Sydney.

However, I was driving through a country town and I came across a most steep hill. I had to climb up slowly in 1st gear as there was cars ahead of me. When I had to do a hill start at the end of the road, I struggled as the car rolled back about half a meter before going forward. Thankfully, no cars were behind me!

The technique I used when it was my turn to go:

1. Foot on brake and in neutral position
2. Depressed clutched and moved to 1st gear
3. Slowly released clutched to biting spot
4. Removed foot off brake and pressed accelerator slowly
5. Car started rolling back, so I panicked and gave more throttle and released clutch
6. I can hear the wheels skid, but managed to get going

It was a bit of a scary feeling as this is my first manual car and I didn't ever drive on a hill as steep as this.

I can't use the handbrake method because my handbrake is not really strong (I think it's a defender thing?), so even if engaged the handbrake, the vehicle would still rollback.

After reading online in other posts, I can see other defender drivers use the anti-stall feature when they go off-roading up steep hills, so I want to learn how to do do this in my vehicle for hill starts.

If my reading is correct, I have to use the transfer gearbox to move to low range position and then it shouldn't stall when taking off in first gear right? Then I can move to 2nd/3rd gear in the main gearbox (while still in low range in transfer gear) until I have enough speed to then switch to high range in the transfer gearbox right? The manual says to leave the transfer gear in neutral for 3 seconds before switching to high range.

From the manual, I can see:

Quote:

Stationary method
With the vehicle stationary and the engine
running:

1. Depress the clutch.
2. Move the transfer lever from the current
range setting into the neutral position (e.g.
from high to neutral).
3. Move the transfer lever from neutral into
the desired range setting (e.g. from neutral
to low).

Changing from low to high on the move

1. Apply slight rearward pressure to the
transfer lever, in preparation for the range
change.
2. Then, in three simultaneous moves,
depress the clutch, release the accelerator
and pull the transfer lever into neutral.
3. Release the clutch pedal for approximately
three seconds, before pressing it again and
moving the lever firmly into the high range
position.
4. Select a suitable main gear in the main
gearbox, release the clutch and continue
driving as normal

For the entire time I owned the defender, I have never used the transfer gearbox (always was on high range) as I never needed it, so I was wondering if you can please provide any advice or tips on how I can conquer extreme hill starts using the anti-stall feature. I have used the handbrakes for very steep hills in other manual cars, but doing it on a defender seems much more difficult. I'll go in an empty parking lot to practice in the new year.

Thanks in advance <3

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31st Dec 2021 5:28am

deep down

Member Since: 02 May 2012
Location: France
Posts: 204

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Zambezi Silver

It sounds like you might need to get your handbrake adjusted.

https://www.defender2.net/forum/post134568.html

Once adjusted start practicing your hill starts, as it's a transmission brake it takes some getting used to taking up the backlash before releasing the handbrake.

As for switching between Hi and Lo follow the method and again practice on flat ground. I double clutch at neutral point, I find it makes for a smoother change.

31st Dec 2021 6:07am

Dinnu

Member Since: 24 Dec 2019
Location: Lija
Posts: 3214

2012 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Santorini Black

Never change transfer box ratio at speed. There should be a decal in the dash and Landrover suggest to only change transfer box ratio between 0 and 5mph. I think 5mph is too fast. 1988 90 Hard Top, 19J Diesel Turbo, Shire Blue - Restoration ongoing
2012 90 CSW, 2.2TDCI, Santorini Black

31st Dec 2021 6:29am

Co1

Member Since: 19 Aug 2018
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3618

I don’t use the handbrake on any gradient of hill, I use the technique you describe. You might just need more practice, and I’d suggest start on flat ground to get your confidence up.

Agree with Dinnu re the transfer box change. Do it stationary.

31st Dec 2021 8:44am

lakelander

Member Since: 07 Jan 2017
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 100

2013 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Orkney Grey

Does the anti stall only work in low range?

31st Dec 2021 10:49am

jpboost

Member Since: 13 Apr 2021
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 374

2014 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

No, anti-stall works in high range too.

I'm currently living on a farm and the speed that the anti-stall gives in 2nd (high ratio), is about perfect for chugging about.

31st Dec 2021 10:56am

LandRoverAnorak

Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 11240

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Orkney Grey

Re: Need help with hill starts with anti-stalls

No, it works in high range too but it's not infallible and shouldn't really be used as a substitute for proper clutch control.

fatduckling wrote:
I have a 2011 Defender 110 which I use as my main vehicle 1-2 times a week. It's my first car and I don't do any off-roading with it. I've been driving it for a year, and have had no issues with hill climbs because the car has lot of torque in first gear and the roads are fairly flat around my area in Sydney.

However, I was driving through a country town and I came across a most steep hill. I had to climb up slowly in 1st gear as there was cars ahead of me. When I had to do a hill start at the end of the road, I struggled as the car rolled back about half a meter before going forward. Thankfully, no cars were behind me!

The technique I used when it was my turn to go:

1. Foot on brake and in neutral position
2. Depressed clutched and moved to 1st gear
3. Slowly released clutched to biting spot
4. Removed foot off brake and pressed accelerator slowly
5. Car started rolling back, so I panicked and gave more throttle and released clutch
6. I can hear the wheels skid, but managed to get going

Firstly, as already noted above, get your handbrake adjusted if it won't hold the vehicle on a hill. Whilst the mechanism is different to ordinary cars, acting on the transmission rather than the back wheels, it's not 'a Defender thing' for it not to work in the circumstances you describe.

To be honest, it just sounds like you need more practice doing hill starts. Your technique up to no.4 sounds fine but at that point you need to progressively balance letting the clutch out with applying the accelerator. It's not different from any other car but the clutch pedal may be heavier than you're used to. It's easy to write this, of course, but there's really no substitute for trying it out until you've got a better feel for it.

Whilst using low range to start on a steep hill is a legitimate technique, it should really only be necessary on tarmac if very heavily loaded or towing a large trailer, for instance. The subsequent technique of changing from low to high on the move is not for the feint hearted and is much more tricky to get right than a practiced hill start. Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia

31st Dec 2021 11:05am

mwestcrew

Member Since: 09 Dec 2019
Location: South Warwickshire
Posts: 221

2011 Defender 130 Puma 2.4 HCPU Baltic Blue

In my opinion anti-stall on tdci is excellent and more than capable of making hill starts in high 1st. except on the very steepest hills.

Whilst holding the vehicle with the footbrake select first gear, bring the clutch up to the biting point and then slowly release the brake pedal, simultaneously letting the the clutch all the way up. The anti-stall will do exactly what it says on the tin and fuel the engine to move away at idle r.p.m. Once moving feed in the throttle.

Worth bearing in mind that as soon as there is throttle input anti stall is overridden 2011 130 Utility Body
2005 110 Van

31st Dec 2021 1:02pm

landy andy

Member Since: 15 Feb 2009
Location: Ware, Herts
Posts: 5424

2006 Defender 110 Td5 USW Zermatt Silver

As some above I don’t use the “hand brake” for hill starts, it’s not for that in my opinion it’s a park brake, especially on a Defender where it’s a transmission brake. You just need to practice the art of hill starts from what I understand from your post. Either gentle release of clutch using the anti stall, or using power but not too much. I’m thinking perhaps you just gave it too much power so were spinning the wheels. Another point I would add, is that you need to use your high/low and diff lock on/off so these things don’t seize and cause issues for you later.

I’d advise finding a big, but quiet hill and getting some practice done. The better you get the longer your clutch will last. So stay away from loads of revs.

31st Dec 2021 1:30pm

Bluest

Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3997

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

As above I use the anti-stall to pull away on gradients I usually get rolling with no throttle pedal at all, just bring the clutch up, release the brakeand then accelerate away once off the clutch. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

31st Dec 2021 1:39pm

fatduckling

Member Since: 31 Dec 2021
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8

Thanks everyone for your responses!

I think it boils down to two things:

1. I need more practice with hill starts so I'll work on this
2. Get my handbrake adjusted so it can hold itself on a hill.

Also, how does the anti-stall work? I have the transfer gear in high range and main gear in 1st, and if I remove my foot off the clutch, it still stalls. I have a 2011 Defender 110, so do I need to set the transfer gear in low range for the anti-stall to work?

31st Dec 2021 4:15pm

Bluest

Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 3997

It’s a gradual thing. As you slowly release the clutch and give some load to the engine the ECU increases the “throttle” automatically to prevent a stall. Of course you can still stall it if there’s too much load (maybe a big trailer on a steep hill) or just sidestep off the clutch, but the TDCi has a lot of torque at idle so it’s shouldn’t stall easily at all. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

31st Dec 2021 4:33pm

Trundlebus

Member Since: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Herts
Posts: 94

I well be told I do it wrong but: my puma is used with a demountable camper. When fully loaded it is 3500kg. We frequently go into mountains. When I have to start on a steep hill I stop the engine, engage low range (if it’s really steep). Put it into gear. Hold it on the foot brake, start the engine and let go of the brake. I do not touch the clutch. The truck just drives up the hill. Change gear as normal once underway

31st Dec 2021 6:34pm

JPE

Member Since: 19 Nov 2018
Location: South West England
Posts: 316

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Firenze Red

I love hill starts since getting my puma. Hill starts are quite possibly my favourite thing. I never use the hand brake when driving, its just a parking brake. Technique: Hold the vehicle on the foot brake, bring up the clutch gently, only release the foot brake gently when you feel the engine pushing against the brakes. Take your time moving your foot to the accelerator, the anti-stall is amazing so there's no rush. Anti-stall is a thing of beauty & creates the calmest of hill start experiences, however laden the vehicle. My tip would be to relax into it, almost to the point of sleeping, & experience the full joy of a calm slow-motion hill start. The defender will take care of itself. Forget what you've learned to do in lesser vehicles.

31st Dec 2021 8:16pm

Supacat

Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 11018

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Trundlebus wrote:
I well be told I do it wrong but: my puma is used with a demountable camper. When fully loaded it is 3500kg. We frequently go into mountains. When I have to start on a steep hill I stop the engine, engage low range (if it’s really steep). Put it into gear. Hold it on the foot brake, start the engine and let go of the brake. I do not touch the clutch. The truck just drives up the hill. Change gear as normal once underway

I won't say you are wrong, but I do wonder at the additional stress on the starter motor. You can move the vehicle with the starter motor but I've only used that on the flat and in an emergency.

Also if the vehicle is in gear before you start the engine, I would have thought that made use of the footbrake redundant?

1st Jan 2022 11:28am

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