 | Home > Puma (Tdci) > Depress clutch to start |
 
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| Bergos Member Since: 08 Aug 2015 Location: Somewhere in Portugal Posts: 95   
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Hi.
Has anybody modified the Def in the way that depressing the clutch is necessary to start the engine, like in the USDM cars? Or maybe it has been implemented in the Defenders sold (long, long time ago) to the US market and there is a plug and play kit available? Bergos LR Defender 110 HT 2007 (2.4 Puma) https://www.facebook.com/LR.Wanderlust/ |
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21st Jul 2018 7:25pm |
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831  
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On some new Transit vans you have to press the clutch and brake. Don't make old people mad.
We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to  us off.
Richard |
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22nd Jul 2018 9:39am |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720 
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its mainly on vehicles with stop/start I think.
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22nd Jul 2018 10:52am |
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| Rashers Member Since: 21 Jun 2015 Location: Norfolk Posts: 3352 
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I have never had a vehicle which requires the clutch to be depressed before starting, but I do this as a matter of habit.
I’m not sure why I do this? It might have been my driving instructor telling me? He also had a bit of a thing about depressing the button on the handbrake when pulling it on (he didn’t like the sound of the ratchet). Maybe he was very OCD? Both habits of stuck with me thirty odd years latter. Maybe I am very OCD - cue the current Mrs Rashers - she stands in Supermarkets rearranging the tins so the labels all face forward  |
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22nd Jul 2018 12:01pm |
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| Bergos Member Since: 08 Aug 2015 Location: Somewhere in Portugal Posts: 95
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This is standard in all cars sold in US.
Yep, the ability to move the car by means of the starter motor is something to consider. It could be a lifesaver. Why should we always depress the clutch when starting (or stopping) the engine? 1. It saves your clutch disc and the flywheel. 2. If you disconnect the gearbox it's easier (in terms of physics) to start the engine, so you will use less power end give less stress to the starter motor. 3. In case you left your car in gear it will prevent making a forward/backward jump which could crate damage both to cars or people/animals etc. Bergos LR Defender 110 HT 2007 (2.4 Puma) https://www.facebook.com/LR.Wanderlust/ |
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22nd Jul 2018 2:05pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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Teaching people to press the clutch down to start stems from when cars had poor electrical systems and by pressing the clutch you were, in theory, helping out the starter and battery by taking away the load of the transmission. It's like parking with the car in gear, Or using the gearbox to slow down on cars with drum brakes all around. Because most cars used to have poor brakes.
Thankfully modern cars are over braked and generally have much more resilient electrical systems. It just depends on when your instructor learned to drive. I would think it's almost impossible to get a modern cars brakes to fade, most have quite large vented discs on them. You might do it with a heavy caravan and a fully loaded car, but even then you'd have to deliberately try. I never really understood the point of pressing the handbrake button in though. Supposedly it was for vehicle sympathy reasons and prevented the handbrake pawl from wearing. But I've never known a car to have a handbrake pawl wear out, even on fleet vehicles that had done a couple of hundred thousand miles with little sympathy given. |
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22nd Jul 2018 2:14pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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1. It wont make any difference to the clutch or flywheel. The starter acts directly onto the flywheel anyway. And the load on the clutch plate is minimal - Puma clutches can be weak but they're not 'that' weak. (nb. No DMF on a Puma) 2. This is true in theory and goes back to my reply to Rashers above, but given the size of the starter and battery on a Defender it'll make little if any difference. 3. I routinely wiggle the gearstick to check it's in neutral before starting the engine. Even if you do crank it with it in gear, if you have the handbrake on it wont make the car move far enough to damage anything - it will put load on the starter and clutch but unless you're extremely forgetful, then the rare occasion that it happens wont be enough to cause any lasting damage. On the flip side depressing the clutch to start every time has the potential to increase wear on the thrust bearing (with it's concentric slave cylinder) and wear the ends of the fingers on the clutch pressure plate. I think it's included as a feature on some new cars, because it allows the manufacturer to specify a smaller (lighter) battery and smaller (lighter) starter - which reduces cost and weight in the quest for greater fuel economy. |
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22nd Jul 2018 2:26pm |
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| lohr500 Member Since: 14 Sep 2014 Location: Skipton Posts: 1287 
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So here's an interesting question !!
Is the load on the engine caused by the drag from the gearbox in neutral actually greater than if you push your foot on the clutch? We all know how heavy the Defender clutch pedal is, and the force from the concentric slave cylinder must be acting on the clutch housing which in turn is rotating with the flywheel. Or am I talking nonsense? |
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22nd Jul 2018 3:40pm |
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| zsd-puma Member Since: 09 Aug 2016 Location: Kent Posts: 2720
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There will be a certain amount of drag from the thrust bearing. There probably isn't a huge amount of difference from the gearbox rotating and rotating the loaded thrust bearing. Unless the clutch is really badly adjusted somehow. It was a bigger problem in the days of 6 volt electrics.
However the gearbox bearings are lubricated with gear oil, the thrust bearing only relies on the small amount of grease it contains. So the thrust bearing will fail before the gearbox bearings do. |
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22nd Jul 2018 7:35pm |
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| Alien Member Since: 18 Jan 2015 Location: Bacchus Marsh Posts: 230 
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I'd be reluctant to do this to any off road vehicle as you wont be able to key start if it stalls when in steep terrain. A hidden switch on the starter input would be more effective IMO. Cheers, Kyle. |
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29th Jul 2018 2:04am |
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| blackwolf Member Since: 03 Nov 2009 Location: South West England Posts: 16894 
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^^^ What Kyle said
On an off road vehicle this idea could kill you. I always routinely start anything with the clutch out, it may not be necessary but never does any harm and is safer (there are failure modes where a gearbox can appear to be in neutral when it isn't), but I've never needed technology to enforce it. I simply press the pedal. On the other hand on at least 3 occasions in the last 40+ years I've had to continue my journey after a complete failure of the clutch release system and drive without a clutch, and this would not be possible if you cannot start in gear. |
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29th Jul 2018 8:52am |
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| HK07 Member Since: 15 Dec 2016 Location: Hampshire Posts: 746  
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I have a 64 plate Fiesta Van which requires the brake and clutch pedel pressed in order to start.
It's a complete pain in the whatsit, I hate it. Every now and then it gets confused and I have to get out lock it, and start again. All these cars are just to complicated now.  2007 90 Puma - Love it - Best car I have ever owned.
1989 Ninety 200tdi - Love it - Second best car I have ever owned. 1951 80" Series 1 - Love it - Third best car I have ever owned. |
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30th Jul 2018 7:59am |
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| AndrewS Member Since: 10 Apr 2007 Location: Hereford Posts: 3707 
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When off road I always turn the engine off in gear and re start in gear with no clutch operation. Clearly there will be the odd occasion when its best to use the clutch ie soft sand. 130's have feeling's as well you know
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30th Jul 2018 9:21am |
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