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churchy



Member Since: 28 Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 236

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Lumpy idle
Morning all,

Typical - you treat the wagon to some new seats and now he develops a mech issue!

Had a new air mass sensor fitted 6k miles ago when it was running irratically at cold start up and idle. Cured issue after fault code found.

Now experiencing same issues but combined with a more noisey EGR cleaning cycle but have no engine man light on.

Garage did a v quick plug in yesterday and no fault codes found. No loss of power and once warm it runs with no issues.

New EGR fitted @ 105k and now done 170k miles.

Strangely both the circumstances above have occurred after a fill with premium grade diesel but think this is just coincidence......both the EGR and a faulty air mass sensor seem to give the same or similar problems?!
Post #630502 11th Jun 2017 7:52am
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schuee



Member Since: 16 Jul 2012
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 378

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Orkney Grey
Morning Churchy,

Funnily enough I have been experiencing very similar episodes as you have posted. I have found engine idle eratic especially when we had a spot of cold weather a while ago though when engine warms up runs great, and whilst this was happening the engine sounded like a bag of spanners, very clattery. I had another EGR fitted late last year ( 3rd one ) as when turning engine off, it was making a horrible screeching noise, so I'm looking at having a stage one remap and having it disabled when out of extended warranty, going back to your problem, it may be your VCV valve, and from other forum members discussions, the VCV doesn't throw any DTC's when it is faulty, so I have asked my dealer to replace as a bit of an excercise to see if this will cure problem, I also have experienced the same issue after filling up with BP Ultimate. Hopefully after new VCV will see if there is any improvement, will let you know mate.

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic30222....rough+idle

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic49491....rough+idle

Cheers

Keith
Post #630510 11th Jun 2017 8:16am
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custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19449

United Kingdom 
Clean MAF & MAP sensors would be a good start. Thumbs Up Diesels Lives Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️
And if You Love the Country, then we’re on the same side ~
I got’ love for Britain, I got’ British pride’. 🇬🇧
Post #630517 11th Jun 2017 9:38am
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churchy



Member Since: 28 Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 236

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Thats my plan today! What sort of cleaners recommended? will need to google their location too!
Post #630519 11th Jun 2017 10:06am
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churchy



Member Since: 28 Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 236

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Cleaned maf and map and things a little better buthave noticed the egr doing its cleaning noise intermittently when driving!?
Post #630545 11th Jun 2017 1:11pm
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ericvv



Member Since: 02 Jun 2011
Location: Near the Jet d'Eau
Posts: 5816

Switzerland 2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SVX Station Wagon Santorini Black
It is normal that the EGR is opening and closing during driving, and that you hear it doing that. EGR only opens when plenty power is asked, but when power demand eases it will close again. Now it is then not the 5 chukkas of the cleaning cycle obviously, only should be one.
Eric You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation.
http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o
https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I
https://vimeo.com/201482507
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw
Post #630556 11th Jun 2017 2:17pm
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custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19449

United Kingdom 
Holts brake cleaner Aerosol is perfectly okay for cleaning the sensors, and solvent based.

The EGR making noises whilst driving can happen, but it should be barely noticable.

You could try un-plugging the EGR, but only if you can clear the MIL when it illuminates on the dash.

My guess is it's probably slightly sticky / sticking open a little.

MAF and EGR codes are often accompanying, so can often go hand in hand, typically the EGR is the culprit.

For now, I'd clean your MAP and MAF and run some Millers diesel additive.

And see how you go from there. Thumbs Up

*edit* Just read you've already cleaned the sensors, at least you've had some reward from that.
It must be the EGR then, when mine started making noises whilst driving it nearly always was on its way out. Confused Diesels Lives Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️
And if You Love the Country, then we’re on the same side ~
I got’ love for Britain, I got’ British pride’. 🇬🇧
Post #630567 11th Jun 2017 3:25pm
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churchy



Member Since: 28 Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 236

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Thanks Steve - which particular milers product is best? If no change will remove egr and clean ideally before approaching the replace idea!
Post #630592 11th Jun 2017 6:36pm
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Jerry



Member Since: 13 Nov 2015
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 166

2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 Adventure Phoenix Orange
I also have lumpy idle (mainly) when cold on first starting up. It disappears within 20secs or so, and runs great. I also use premium grade diesel...so either we all have VCV / sensor issues or maybe it is something to do with the premium diesel.... there is another similar post in Technical - would be interesting to get a consensus on this.

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic50069.html
Post #631287 14th Jun 2017 11:02am
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AlanH



Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: WA
Posts: 242

Australia 
My 2.4 is much the same when cold, although cold here is not as cold there of course. Lumpy, noisy and jerks when I take the foot off before cornering.
Both MAP and MAF have been cleaned and CVC changed but not much difference. When we go on a long trip I don't notice it as it warms quickly, it's just the short run to get the paper in the morning where it's at it's worst.
The mechanic thinks it may be something to do with the remap as he can't find any reason for it. EGR was shut off with the remap as usual.
AlanH.
Post #633992 27th Jun 2017 11:27pm
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churchy



Member Since: 28 Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 236

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Well I am three diesel fills from empty whilst using millers and I have to say the general decrease in engine noise, smoother running including acceleration and fuel economy seem to be better. Hope its not just me willing it better! EGR still noisier than it used to be but not as noisy as it was!

Got MOT coming up so fingers x!
Post #635766 5th Jul 2017 2:04pm
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custom90



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West, England.
Posts: 19449

United Kingdom 
Good stuff isn't it. It should bring down emissions slightly also. Diesels Lives Matter. ⛽️🛢️👨‍🔧🧰⚙️
And if You Love the Country, then we’re on the same side ~
I got’ love for Britain, I got’ British pride’. 🇬🇧
Post #635781 5th Jul 2017 4:04pm
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zsd-puma



Member Since: 09 Aug 2016
Location: Kent
Posts: 2720

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Santorini Black
AlanH wrote:
EGR was shut off with the remap as usual.
AlanH.


Is it actually closed properly, it could be stuck partially open. It's why they're better with a blanking plate fitted.
Post #635866 5th Jul 2017 9:52pm
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churchy



Member Since: 28 Jul 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 236

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black
Just thought I'd update - still using millers and as above it def made an improvement however did a long run down from Yorkshire yesterday and it didn't miss a beat - 'cruised' at 70-80 all the way HOWEVER when we came off the motorway for the last 30mins of the journey on a roads at every junction it started hunting and stalled occasionally. EGR still noisier than normal when driving and at engine shut down.

Been researching automotive carbon cleaning but something tells me to stay away from 'miracle cures' !
Post #637475 14th Jul 2017 11:33am
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ROBBONTHEROCK



Member Since: 23 Jun 2014
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 637

Scotland 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Firenze Red
Take the hit and put a new VCV in.

If you look at all the transit forums, there are pages of comments / threads all saying the same thing.

Seems the VCV are prone to failure and develop lumpy idle and stalling issues.

I found on the web a denso training manual which goes into deep discussion on the Denso HP3 system, which is what is on a 2.4ltr duratorq.

Will find it tonight and post a link to it, quite interesting reading.

It outlines details about pre-injection and post injection, which is effectively a series of small injections ahead of and after the main injection phase, and reduces vibration / noise (knock) and temperature, which means the cylinder is more evenly heated during the combustion process.

One interesting aspect is at present I can't tell yet whether the VCV is permanently moving (oscillating) or whether its more of a static setting and moves more intermittently.

My defender has on occasion a lumpy idle and has hunted in very cold conditions. I have bought a new denso VCV and have it in the garage today being replaced (island 4x4, 78 excl VAT).

It wasn't causing an issue per say, but I'm driving to Europe in two weeks so I want complete confidence.

I've paired it with a new EGR as well.

Cheers
Andy

PS I think the VCV failing, are in effect due to them seizing or sticking, causing the valve to shuttle incorrectly. moisture in the fuel system must be a potential culprit. Also its worth noting in the Denso training manual it does explain that the VCV sits in a open position (high fuel position) when off or low voltage, apparently that translates to a cold start. so perhaps faults with lumpy idle (not hunting) i.e. in a low fuel position would be when hot??

Another fascinating point, is the Denso injectors lift a maximum of 0.05mm when activated by the solenoid. I knew it would be small, but didn't think it would be as small as that.


Last edited by ROBBONTHEROCK on 14th Jul 2017 6:55pm. Edited 2 times in total
Post #637479 14th Jul 2017 11:54am
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