 | Home > Off Topic > Farming subsidies |
 
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| stigomery Member Since: 10 May 2016 Location: Cambridge Posts: 277   
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I don't know the whole picture, but I bet if EU subsidies disappeared we'd all be eating GM crops grown in Uncle Sam's back yard and most of the UK's farming land would end up high priced, organic stuff to feed the toffs or alternatively excellent sites for the world's nuclear waste storage... the economies of scale and produce pricing just doesn't work for the UK vs other big producers. And the UK public won't pay the prices it actually takes to produce the food, farms would simply go out of business without EU subsidies...
That's my understanding anyway... |
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27th Mar 2017 10:50am |
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| Caterham Member Since: 06 Nov 2008 Location: Birmingham Posts: 6264  
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/\ me too?
I didn't think with the EU you were allowed to give subsidies - I guess these subsidies come from the EU and not the UK? beats me. I'm not saying I'm against it but certainly it doesn't seem to make business sense. I for one wouldn't look to go into a business that only made 20% of what it needed to, yet at the same time we clearly need farmers / farming? (it's a crazy old world). |
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27th Mar 2017 10:51am |
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| davew Member Since: 02 Jan 2012 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 888 
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In essence the system is there to ensure that the agricultural industry within the EU is not competing within the EU. So, essentially, it was a way of paying farmers not to produce. It's been one of the most contentious and downright damaging policies of the EU by both fixing prices and excluding competition from developing countries. It originated from a joint agreement between Germany and France to benefit both and it was primarily a fear of the UK's agricultural industry that prompted France to block our entry into the common market until the CAP could be "adjusted" to emasculate the UK agricultural industry. The last thing the French wanted was the UK joining the common market and then flooding the market with produce that they could produce cheaper because we were simply more productive. The French farmers in particular have always felt it their "right" to be protected from competition.
Since it's inception it has grown to encompass new ideas such as using the money to try and implement social engineering with "rural development" as a goal. At the end of the day though it's essentially a way for the EU to control and influence agriculture and land use within it's member states. By adjusting the subsidy farming methods, crops produced and land laid fallow can all be adjusted by the commission. The downside of all this is that a farmer is pretty much paid regardless of how well they do and that leads to them being open to supermarket price leveraging. After all, if what you actually produce can be sold at a loss but the business can still make a profit due to the subsidy, the market comes down to a battle to see how much of a loss you can sustain when you sell your produce. The battle for efficiency and productivity in order to sell to the supermarkets at as little loss as possible has pretty much given us the system we have where the biggest farming operations get the largest subsidy and the supermarkets reap the benefits of buying food at less than production costs. The NFU aren't exactly helping the case IMV. The spokesman essentially said that they were in favour of keeping the subsidy because it meant that people were paying more tax so the government could give that tax to farmers so that the people who paid the tax in the first place get a discount on their food. I think there is a valid argument that some subsidies should be paid to protect a way of life and to reduce the environmental impact of intensive farming but, on the whole, I think a system where farmers get paid cost of sales plus profit for their goods has to be a better long term solution. None of this is the farmer's fault though, at the end of the day it was a system they had forced on them and they have adapted to it. It turned a once thriving, productive industry into a very different business model and changing that model back too quickly now would see a lot of small farming businesses going under. We will also need to ensure that, perversely, import duty is added to food coming form the EU to compensate for the subsidies the EU farmers are still being paid otherwise we'll end up having to pay subsidies in order to counteract the effect of EU subsidies. On the plus side though at least all the money we pay will go to UK farmers whereas, currently, much of the money we spend in subsidies goes to other EU countries. http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/ |
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27th Mar 2017 12:05pm |
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| Huttopia Member Since: 23 Feb 2016 Location: West Midlands Posts: 1967
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I didn't see the interview. If he was a Welsh hill farmer then I'd put forward a case that 80% of not much is still not much. Farming in some areas is not about production, but landscape value. There are many on this forum that love greenlaning, walking or riding through remote parts of the country that are simply not economic to farm. Some stunning photos are posted that make us all wish we were out there. The alternative to subsidy (wherever it comes from) is to allow these remote and often beautiful parts of the country to return to a wild state. The Lake District, Moors, national parks etc. would look radically different without efforts of the farmers and keepers who manage them, and the only way to continue that is via subsidy of some form or another.
There is a really clear challenge re how the subsidy systems work, overlap and are abused, but putting aside how poorly the schemes are conceived and administered, which generation wants to be known as the one that let our great open spaces go to ruin? |
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27th Mar 2017 12:08pm |
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| David T Member Since: 01 Sep 2016 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 190 
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Thank you very much, davew.
Hopefully, ideally, there will be a "Buy British" campaign and we as a nation will support not only British agriculture and fishing but all facets of British industry, once free of the EU. On a personal level, we try to use seasonal produce along with locally sourced dairy and meat. Booths in particular (northern supermarket chain) are at pains to point out that many of their suppliers are local. Obviously that does'nt work with the entire shopping basket but we do our best. Wife and I are back in Italy next week, I'll have a look around the supermarkets. I've not really paid much attention before but it will be interesting to see what, if any, British goods are available. |
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27th Mar 2017 1:13pm |
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| AMBxx Member Since: 24 Jul 2016 Location: York Posts: 985 
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I didn't think sheep farming received a subsidy any more?
My wife has a lot of farmers as patients. Typical response from them is that you can't build a business on a subsidy. Seems that the NFU is pushing to go in a direction opposed by the vast majority of farmers. |
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27th Mar 2017 1:39pm |
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| JJ Member Since: 18 May 2009 Location: Winchester Posts: 932 
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There is an irony that a lot of organic producers in the market garden sector ( growing things we actually eat ) don't receive a lot of subsidy at all so what is perceived as expensive is actually the true cost of production for food rather than an artificial price that you have already paid for out of your taxes. HR064 Hampshire and Berkshire 4x4 Response
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27th Mar 2017 2:27pm |
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| Farmerben Member Since: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 604 
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Ok, just to clear things up, subsidies are no longer linked to production of specific crops or sectors of agriculture. Instead Basic Payments are done on an area basis (so anyone farming over, I think 16 hectares, can apply through the BPS). In order to qualify, farmers must show that they are actively farming and adhere to a set of rules called Cross Compliance which include things like overwintering stubble, growing a minimum of three crops, manure management etc.
On top of this there are various schemes that exist as a result of "modulation" which essentially is a slice of the overall sum received by the UK through CAP, that is taken off the general BPS and is made available for things such as countryside stewardship schemes. These tend to run for a few years and aim to improve biodiversity, protect endangered wildlife species and minimise agriculture's impact on the environment. There is then additional money that is set aside for grants for things like "rural development". It is designed to encourage rural businesses and employment in the countryside but is not solely limited to agriculture. Projects have to meet certain criteria and is usually awarded as a percentage of the overall cost of an investment (eg if a dairy farmer wanted to start making cheese and wanted to buy some cheese making equipment, he could potentially apply for, say 40% of the capital investment limited to a total of £35k). I am an organic tenant farmer and receive subsidies through BPS, HLS and OELS. I'd quite happily give them all up as long as we could charge what we needed to charge to make a profit but all prices are dictated by supermarkets. (All this has been dragged from my brain. Some facts could be wrong, out of date or a fabrication of my imagination). https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews |
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27th Mar 2017 3:58pm |
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| David T Member Since: 01 Sep 2016 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 190
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Do me a favour please, Farmerben. Take a look at www.booths.co.uk
They have a link about becoming a supplier and how they do business, along with a few case studies. I realise these supermarkets are no good for the single mother with 3 or 4 kids to feed and I'm not thinking about the urban hipsters who'll pay £15 for a jar of Corsican olives marinated in monkey snot. I'm on about normal people. I quite happily pay extra for food I know is from local or regional businesses, as long as it's good stuff. I started this thread because I was astonished that a farm should raise 80% of it's income thru subsidies. Maybe in the future, in post-Brexit Britain, that can be avoided. Hope so. We need a slogan, how about "I'm Backing Britain" |
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27th Mar 2017 4:45pm |
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| Farmerben Member Since: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 604
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I was just trying to clear up some of the confusion about who does and doesn't receive subsidies.
I'm well aware of Booths - just before the recession we made organic dairy products and sold cheesecakes to them. Great company to deal with - but they still dictate the price and I can guarantee the price you see on the shelves bears no relation to what the producer gets. And they are still a niche player in the world of supermarkets and are dwarfed by the big 4. Our business suffered in the crash in 2008 so we sold it. Two subsequent buyers had a go and neither of them could make it work. We then concentrated on selling our liquid milk to a local dairy that mainly just bottles milk but in spring last year, because the milk price was so low and he was getting pushed out of the market by larger processors and Tesco Expresses setting up on every street corner. He then told us that from end of September 2016 he would no longer take our milk. So there we were, no milk contract with nobody wanting to take on new producers with milk prices at about what they were in the 70s. We are tenant farmers and had the difficult decision to make that we either plough £500k-£1mil into upgrading our parlour and sheds with the risk of getting kicked off the farm in 5 years, or pack it in. And that is what we, along with many other dairy farmers had to do and as a result we are giving up the tenancy on one of our farms that my family has been farming for 100 years while the landlord, our future king, just has to find a new tenant and doesn't have to lose a wink of sleep. It's the problem with ditching quotas - everyone thought "the market will sort itself out" but it doesn't. All that happens is that there are great big pendulum swings of supply and demand. When demand is high, everyone increases production which leads to an oversupply. Then the price crashes and the big boys can weather the storm, the small guys get knocked off the bottom. The big boys then absorb the land/production volume and so it continues like musical chairs until you get to the bare minimum of producers you can have before it gets called a monopoly. On our other farm (also tenanted) we grow organic kale and lettuce for Abel and Cole and organic beef. This is a ridiculous article from the Telegraph about us that is mostly made up and goes to show why even in reputable papers, you can't always believe what you read. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/re...reens.html You see, 90% of startups fail. If you want to process or "add value" to foods you need expensive kit, all manner of food hygiene certificates and money for marketing. If it goes wrong, you lose everything - 9 years later and we're still paying for the failure of our project. Of those Booths case studies, how many do you think are profitable businesses and how many will still be here in ten years? NFU, Red Tractor Farm Assurance and AHDB regularly put out campaigns. Here's one from the NFU http://www.nfuonline.com/back-british-farming/ but they largely fall on deaf ears because while you may be prepared to pay a bit extra (and for that I thank you), there are many, many other people who just buy on price. Not many folk really take the time to check where something comes from. It isn't made any easier by supermarket deliberately misleading customers with packaging that implies a product is British when in fact it isn't. Sorry for that massive brain fart. Just the very mention of food production gets me a bit worked up and I struggle to write a coherent sentence. https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews |
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27th Mar 2017 5:42pm |
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| alwoodley72 Member Since: 14 Mar 2010 Location: salisbury, wilts Posts: 716 
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Thank you for that, Farmerben, a real glimpse into the ' real world' of farming that I have witnessed over the last 30 years, such a headache...
What would you suggest as a 'solution'? Cheers. Alex 98 300 tdi 90 project 94 Range Rover vogue 4.2 lse 79 911 sc 08 130 double cab utility |
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27th Mar 2017 6:36pm |
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| David T Member Since: 01 Sep 2016 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 190
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Thanks again Ben, interesting stuff. I've made most of my money working on contracts converting places like this into £1.5m+ dwellings. Difficult to see why a farmer would refuse £300 to £500 thousand for derelict barn when faced with trying to earn that much from sheep or dairy.
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27th Mar 2017 7:14pm |
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| lambert.the.farmer Member Since: 11 Apr 2012 Location: harrogate Posts: 2006 
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Subsidised farming, good one! Yeah my farm is subsidised, by me getting up at 4 in the morning to go and muck out the bogs of a office block before doing another days work on the farm to keep it's nostrils above the water. I could go out and clean all day and earn 4 or 5 times the money but I ain't about to sell out my history and for what, a forty odd year old political idea with all the merit of a 6 week old peach.
I do however get to spend all day outside though and I have a very nice box of toys to play with.  Rhubarb and custard let fly with their secret weapon. |
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27th Mar 2017 7:43pm |
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| Farmerben Member Since: 16 Jan 2017 Location: Herefordshire Posts: 604
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Depends whether you see the answer as being: Cheap food Environmentally sustainable High animal welfare Financially sustainable If I could find an answer that achieves all four, I'd be a rich man. https://instagram.com/bentheoandrews |
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27th Mar 2017 9:40pm |
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