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Member Since: 17 Oct 2014
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 129

United Kingdom 1986 Defender 90 200 Tdi SW Arles Blue
200Tdi Race engine - Weak points and limitations

Hi

I'm looking at increasing the power significantly on my Discovery 200tdi engine. This is for fun.

So far I've got a bunch of parts together, besides the usual FIP tweaks with EGT and boost gauges.

-Big universal full-width intercooler
-Garrett turbo from a 4.4 Perkins engine - 3" downpipe and straight through exhaust
-Water/methanol injection setup
-Dry nitrous kit

Things I'm looking into:

-ARP Head studs
-Cometic/ upgraded head gasket
-Porting/polishing
-Performance coatings - internal engine components/ ceramic coated exhaust manifold

I'd like to give the engine a full rebuild including balancing at some point in the future but for now just looking at something in the 150-200hp range that'll hold together if treated with some respect.

Would anyone know what the main weaknesses are in the 200tdi if it's given some abuse with this setup? I know the heads can crack, but no ones snapped a con rod or anything silly have they?


At the moment with the fuel pump settings changed and the stock turbo wastegate set to 16psi, the 90 can chirp its tyres pulling away in 2nd (235 tyres, LT77, 1.6 Transfer ratio)


Supposing one can get a reliable 200hp and 300 lb ft. of torque from this engine, what's going to break first? Will the drivetrain handle it or would a sintered/paddle clutch have to be used with limited slip diffs?


I'd appreciate any advice or previous experience Thumbs Up

Post #583177 7th Dec 2016 12:20am
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Defendermatt



Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 72

United Kingdom 

I am embarking on a similar project, like you, just because I can and I want to push the tdi to see how far we can go. One thing I would say is that you need have a sweet engine to start with. To give you an idea mine will be practically new once complete (new: rods, pistons, crank, bearings etc.) I still want it to be reliable power.

At the moment I have a collection of parts that are almost ready to build up.
I donít plan the meth route as I donít know enough about it. But to go further I would suggest you look at modifying the FIP and injectors, a search on the Cummins forums will give plenty of information about the VE.

I have looked at ARP studs and other head gaskets but found nothing, so if you come up with something then Iíd love to hear about it.

As for power figures I know of people getting 200hp from the 2.8tgv so Iím not sure if the 2.5 will get up to this sort of output. 150/170 may be a little more realistic. However I am hoping that 300 lb ft. will be a sensible target.
The tdi is a solid robust lump and has a strong bottom end; a friend has a 200 in his off road truck and runs 1.5 bar all day long. So hope mine doesnít throw a rod Very Happy .

Post #583190 7th Dec 2016 8:49am
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jst
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Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 3827

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey

I would go through the drive train prop ujs, drive member I would replace. Plus consider adhcrofts for CVs, shafts and use atb or 4 pin diffs. Depends on intended use and final tyre size. Cheers

James

www.thebigoutdoors.org/
110 XS Utility
90 TC 2.8TGV auto
90 tdci Softtop - FOR SALE

Post #583191 7th Dec 2016 9:19am
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Defendermatt



Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 72

United Kingdom 

I agree, when listening to serious ultra4/winch challenge competitors they all say that the Defender drive train is a weak link. I have fitted Quaife ATB's and have thought about props and such. Ashcroft shafts will be on the list if standard ones are not strong enough.

Post #583195 7th Dec 2016 9:35am
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Mdm



Member Since: 11 Sep 2013
Location: On a planet far far away
Posts: 512

United Kingdom 

back in the day we used to run a fully rebuilt ported n polished head tweaked 200 tdi on the challenge scene

circa 170bhp and reliable

we did swap the turbo but this made it to laggy
we went to v8 power and then td5 power as we could do a fun day on 1/2 tank of fuel rather than a full tank by lunchtime.

drivetrain wise depends on your usage and tyre size for road use with sensible tires you should be ok but if used with bigger aggressive pattern tires i would upgrade the axles with ashcroft parts.

i have tested both a gas and water injected diesel landy a few years ago and whilst they were more powerful a remapped td5 or good v8 was more usable and dare i say quicker off the line.

i assume you are planning to dyno it as a standard engine before the mods and then as the mods progress?

im sure pete bell would love to throw it on his rolling road


either way good luck with project.

Post #583277 7th Dec 2016 5:54pm
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Defendermatt



Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 72

United Kingdom 

Ahh well at least a figure of 170hp seems like a sensible one to aim for as a start!

I won't be able to dyno it before any mods are made as it is being built up into a newly rebuilt Defender. I will dyno at the end and probably take another 200tdi powered truck for a benchmark.

I'm going to stick with a VNT rather than a huge compressor to keep it usable with little turbo lag.

Post #583321 7th Dec 2016 8:42pm
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Boost



Member Since: 17 Oct 2014
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 129

United Kingdom 1986 Defender 90 200 Tdi SW Arles Blue

Wow, awesome response!

It's great that there's such an interest in these engines, I'd assumed most people moved onto the td5, Puma etc.

Is this Ian of IRB Developments fame? The process of adding the turbo/meth/nitrous is going to be turned into a mini series on YouTube when we've got all the parts if anyone's interested! A dyno run would be the icing on the cake, I've heard IRB are hard to contact though? Wink

It's going to be hit and miss, this is the turbo I'm using https://dencodiesel.com/products/turbocharger-gt2556s-perkins-1
I got it brand new for cheap Thumbs Up

Rebuilding the engine is a fantastic thing to do I think but I don't have the time or expertise at the moment

Top effort though Bow down

Post #583354 7th Dec 2016 9:43pm
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Defendermatt



Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 72

United Kingdom 

I would suggest the use of a ceramic paddle clutch as even a mildly tuned tdi can start to slip.
Matching the inlet and exhaust ports should help with air flow a little also.

Some more advice I would give is that unless you are building engines for a living (which I am not) then read and readÖthen read some more.

Nope. When was the last time you saw a puma do a quarter of a million miles getting used and abused Very Happy. I know a few companies that now use the puma for their site trucks and they are repairing them no end! Bring back the tdi/td5 I hear them say!
For me the tdi is a good starter because itís all mechanical and I understand that. You can Ďre-mapí the tdi with some spanners and mechanical adjustments, you donít need all the electrickery equipment of modern engines. Yes I know you could get the same power from a td5 with moderate tuning and putting less money into it, but whereís the fun in that?

Yes I have tried to contact Ian from IRB a few times (some with some success I may add) however I've heard it's best to go down and see him, not easy if you don't live nearby.
I will be following you on YouTube when the series starts Thumbs Up .

I am no turbo expert and talking with someone like Ian or Josť (from td5inside) may help you make a better decision. But looking at the spec of that turbo it will probably be running out of its efficiency zone and will have looaaads of lag.

Post #583413 8th Dec 2016 7:41am
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Bps



Member Since: 14 Feb 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 307

United Kingdom 

If your wanting to keep it mechanical injection and after big power have you thought of putting a merc om606 in it ?

Post #583420 8th Dec 2016 8:17am
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Defendermatt



Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 72

United Kingdom 

The OM606 is a beast of an engine and the figures that they are producing is very impressive! I would love to fit a 606 but I'm too deep into the tdi build to now back out of it. If I were to do another build I would fit a 606 for sure!

I will post up a spec list of what's been done and what the plans are when the build gets more under way, at the moment its at a bit of a standstill.

Post #583424 8th Dec 2016 8:30am
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Boost



Member Since: 17 Oct 2014
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 129

United Kingdom 1986 Defender 90 200 Tdi SW Arles Blue

She's going to lag! Laughing

Pics of the turbo are in my gallery.

Post #583443 8th Dec 2016 10:23am
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Defendermatt



Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 72

United Kingdom 

Holy Moly!! Shocked
I am excited to see how this goes.

Post #583444 8th Dec 2016 10:31am
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Member Since: 17 Oct 2014
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 129

United Kingdom 1986 Defender 90 200 Tdi SW Arles Blue

Thanks for all the info guys, going to have a look at it tomorrow Cool Also found out how to add photos.



Click image to enlarge




Click image to enlarge




Click image to enlarge




Does anyone know what size threads the oil feed and return line ends use? I've done some research but can't actually find any diagrams. Fingers crossed I've got the right hose ends.

Post #583602 8th Dec 2016 10:57pm
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Member Since: 17 Oct 2014
Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 129

United Kingdom 1986 Defender 90 200 Tdi SW Arles Blue

A quick update on the turbo swap!

- Have made up braided oil feed and return lines
- Turbo is bolted to manifold and *just* fits onto the engine (compressor is very close to the chassis)
- Will be blanking off the factory oil return line location and making a new return to the sump


Removed the sump today and found some interesting metal fragments, which was nice! Very Happy

The good news is the Discovery 200tdi manifold has a brace which bolts to the block, so should support the weight of the larger turbo nicely Thumbs Up

Can post some update pics if anyone's interested.

Post #584217 11th Dec 2016 8:00pm
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Defendermatt



Member Since: 15 Sep 2016
Location: Derbyshire
Posts: 72

United Kingdom 

Why are you not using the factory return union on the block?
I'm definitely interested in some pics Very Happy

Post #584240 11th Dec 2016 8:29pm
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