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agentmulder

Member Since: 16 Apr 2016
Location: Outer Space
Posts: 1324

Fixing diesel knocking at home.. Possible?

Hello all,

I have a 2.4 puma with a bit of knocking noise around certain RPMs, it’s never quite the same each drive, but enough to make me want to do something about it if I can, so I'm iInterested to learn what I can do to reduce it with what I have on hand.

Firstly, I’m about to order some new bolts for my injector retaining clamps due to this issue just fixed this AM:

But while I was shopping I also noticed that new injector seals weren’t going to break the bank so figured why not get some too, people seem to talk about them often...

Question: is replacing the seals easy? is it recommended for this, recommended regardless or asking for trouble?

I should note that I have the (brilliant) BAS 150 remap that includes the RR2 tool that can do the following:

- Pump VCV
- Pilot correction

and if I recall correctly there is also ‘injector learning’ or similar in the menu.

Some of these options apparently eat up your ECU memory however so I don’t want to play with them willy nilly.

Lots of discussion on the net, snake oil merchants - ‘it’s not a problem!’ and so on .. Keen to hear from people in similar circumstances who have achieved success with this at home, especially if they can make some engineering sense out of it. Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants...

Last edited by agentmulder on 4th Jan 2017 8:58pm. Edited 1 time in total

4th Jan 2017 11:25am

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Java Black

Hi!

I have the same issues as you and will get four new injectors tomorrow. I also intend to have the seals replaced. Copper gaskets have been already done.

Did you already check the injectors return flow of diesel? If they are out of tolerance, that's a good indication for them being the culprits.

Will keep updated on how my operation goes.

e_d

4th Jan 2017 11:32am

agentmulder

Member Since: 16 Apr 2016
Location: Outer Space
Posts: 1324

Four new injectors - wow $?

What is the difference between the seals and copper gaskets?

Maybe I need to read up more on this! Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants...

4th Jan 2017 12:34pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

Yeah, might be slightly overkill. But 1+3 and are slightly out of tolerance alrerady, my car has 70k miles on it. They'll be done for sooner or later, and all repairs surrounding the injection system are rather pricey, as I found.

I had the copper gaskets fixed already. The gaskets are worth pennies, but the procedure was was £ 850 (Problem is, apparently, with the Puma you cannot reuse the fuel lines and have to make it all new again).

And, to my dismay, it did not cure the problem. So everything has to come off once more, new fuel lines, etc. And since I do not want to have to take off everything a third time, I figured that I might as well replace the injectors, seals (as I understand it the injectors have two more rubber seals that can also leak), and new copper gaskets again at the same time.

It's scheduled to be done tomorrow, so if I am wrong, please chip in and let me know before I'll bleed a substantial sum of cash, totally unwarranted...

4th Jan 2017 12:54pm

Rickydodah

Member Since: 14 Jul 2014
Location: East Sussex
Posts: 1091

I've changed thousands of injectors and have never had to replace the fuel lines before......maybe this is something peculiar to the Puma engine.
I'd be interested to know the reason if anyone can enlighten me

I started with nothing and still have most of it left!

4th Jan 2017 1:01pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

My mechanic says it's mandated by LR that on a Puma engine, removed fuel lines have to be discarded. Apparently the lines are even self-tapping and cannot be put back on even if one wanted.

So they say

4th Jan 2017 1:06pm

ian series 1

Member Since: 17 Nov 2014
Location: south
Posts: 3127

2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 CSW Bonatti Grey

There is a recomendation about replacing metal fuel lines, but I have done many using the originals and never had a problem.

I would recommend replacing the small leak off O rings (usually green in colour) or at least have some spare ones to hand, as they are very easy to damage when refitting the leak off pipes. 80" 80" 86" 88" 90"

Wanted, Forward Control Anything considered.

4th Jan 2017 2:27pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

And this is exactly what I presume happened last time, as my diesel knock got better, albeit persisted, with new copper gaskets.

Said copper gaskets were replaced, but the green O-rings were not.

Tomorrow, new green O-rings and - while were at it - injectors - and then: hopefully all will be well.

I've been driving with a ever so slightly knocking 110 now for a year, muffling it by using premium diesel. But that's no long term strategy.

4th Jan 2017 2:36pm

ROBBONTHEROCK

Member Since: 23 Jun 2014
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 637

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Firenze Red

ian series 1 wrote:
There is a recomendation about replacing metal fuel lines, but I have done many using the originals and never had a problem.

I would recommend replacing the small leak off O rings (usually green in colour) or at least have some spare ones to hand, as they are very easy to damage when refitting the leak off pipes.

Hi,

Is this based on Puma injectors, or many injectors replacements in general?

I guess if the lines are removed, then your effectively stripping back to the pump, or does it stop at the fuel rail I wonder?

If it stops at the fuel rail, is it not being replaced due to the fact its a forged component and thus very very hard, and not likely to be deformed - I wonder?????

I guess the risk is that the new made connection (using old lines) has a weakness and the chance you could have high pressure fuel spraying inside the engine bay @ circa 1200bar. I would guess its a very small chance, but maybe something LR see as a genuine risk, hence the recommendation.

Cheers
Andy

4th Jan 2017 7:10pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

As I recall, it stripped back to the fuel rail. I also faintly remember the rule existing due to fear of contamination with dirt or residue. Apparently, common rail systems are rather delicate.

4th Jan 2017 7:19pm

agentmulder

Member Since: 16 Apr 2016
Location: Outer Space
Posts: 1324

So:

Fixing diesel knocking at home.. Possible?

Sounds like no? Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants...

4th Jan 2017 8:08pm

LR90XS2011

Member Since: 05 Apr 2011
Location: bickenhill
Posts: 3612

2011 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Galway Green

Hi Agent Mulder , why are 2 of your injectors in the video jumping about like they are not clamped down, i have a 2.4 and the injectors are clamped solid in the head? DEFENDER 90 TDCI XS,

I hope everyone is well and your land rovers make you happy

4th Jan 2017 8:11pm

agentmulder

Member Since: 16 Apr 2016
Location: Outer Space
Posts: 1324

Yeah, they weren't clamped, bolt worked itself loose, refastened the current one but a new pair in the mail as they are 'torque to yield' bolts.

Hell of a clatter that the video doesn't do justice.

Running as per normal again, but the process got me thinking about what I can do about knocking with the stuff I can access as easily.. Solved the bowel problem, working on the consonants...

4th Jan 2017 8:57pm

ian series 1

Member Since: 17 Nov 2014
Location: south
Posts: 3127

ROBBONTHEROCK wrote:
ian series 1 wrote:
There is a recomendation about replacing metal fuel lines, but I have done many using the originals and never had a problem.

I would recommend replacing the small leak off O rings (usually green in colour) or at least have some spare ones to hand, as they are very easy to damage when refitting the leak off pipes.

Hi,

Is this based on Puma injectors, or many injectors replacements in general?

I guess if the lines are removed, then your effectively stripping back to the pump, or does it stop at the fuel rail I wonder?

If it stops at the fuel rail, is it not being replaced due to the fact its a forged component and thus very very hard, and not likely to be deformed - I wonder?????

I guess the risk is that the new made connection (using old lines) has a weakness and the chance you could have high pressure fuel spraying inside the engine bay @ circa 1200bar. I would guess its a very small chance, but maybe something LR see as a genuine risk, hence the recommendation.

Cheers
Andy

Puma Engines/ Transit engines, obviously cleanliness plays a major part in these components, but as long as your carefull you should be fine.
I've never had any issues with leaks or pressure drops, only from leak off O rings which become hardened over time.

I worked on Scania trucks for a while and it was always well documented that the fuel lines were replaced when removed, but generally the customer would not be willing to foot the bill for new lines, (serious money!) so the old ones were reused without issue with the owners consent, and these were running a much higer pressure than a 4 pot diesel.
There was a story of one technician at another depot who had a fuel rail presure valve blow out, which left the fuel rail, through the rads, and grille, and through the workshop wall and out the other side! 80" 80" 86" 88" 90"

Wanted, Forward Control Anything considered.

4th Jan 2017 9:53pm

enfield_dinosaur

Member Since: 14 Jun 2015
Location: Tertius orbis
Posts: 120

The culprit has been found.

Anybody sees something unusual?

5th Jan 2017 12:08pm

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