 | Home > Off Topic > Cameron's EU Defeat |
 
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| keith Member Since: 15 Aug 2012 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2166  
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If Cameron's defeat means that the UK is kicked out of Europe , then does that mean that the EU doesn't have any control over vehicle emitions and legislations ?
If might mean that LR doesn't have to scrap the Defender anymore and we can all take off our DPFs . |
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27th Jun 2014 10:16pm |
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| borderterrier Member Since: 09 Dec 2011 Location: Surrey Posts: 1677  
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I still don't get this fixation with DPF removal!
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27th Jun 2014 10:39pm |
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| Jimb1978 Member Since: 05 Sep 2012 Location: Huddersfield Posts: 804  
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Whoa whoa whoa! More important things to worry about than defenders! Like what? 2002 110 td5
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27th Jun 2014 10:40pm |
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| 22900013A Member Since: 23 Dec 2010 Location: Oxfordshire Posts: 3140 
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They won't kick is out, the EU is about creating the European Federal Superstate. For once I found myself agreeing with Camoron with respect to this Junker guy, who wants to make the EU even more pervasive. 2011 110 USW
1973 Series III 1-Ton 1972 Series III 1-Ton Cherrypicker 1969 IIA 1-Ton 1966 IIA 88" |
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27th Jun 2014 10:55pm |
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| Interlet Member Since: 10 Oct 2011 Location: Norwich Posts: 461 
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Quite right, this will not delay the end of the Defender. As Jimbob says - there are bigger fish to fry.
This is probably a slow, and lengthy exit process, as I now believe we are destined for, IF we get a referendum. I am still very lacking in trust for Conservatives, and LabLib have no intention of offering one. The reason the two leftist parties have no intention of holding a referendum is because they are hell-bent on us staying in the EU. My personal opinion, for years and years now has been that the EU, despite it's very slight shift to a more democratic presidential selection process, is still inherently undemocratic, and overall dangerous. What goes on within the EU is so thinly reported across the entire continent that the vast majority of people have no idea what they are voting for in these European elections, hence the pro-EU majority stays. It is dangerous on multiple counts, as I will try and outline below: 1. Undemocratic - EU Parliament has negligible powers compared to traditional national parliaments / congresses. Does not have the ability to initiate legislation. 2. Excess bureaucracy - the structure of the EU, the various layers of administration from Council to Parliament is too complicated for its own good, and poorly explained by the institutions themselves. Regularly, MEPs and other EU operatives have to ask which organisation has the power to do what. This results in a lot of wasted time and money. Not only this, but it has TWO different EU centers, Brussels and Strasbourg because they could not agree which country the heart of EU governance should lie. This means that regularly, the entire institution has to redeploy - causing a huge logistical nightmare - all the translators, ministers, MEPs, Media, representatives, Commissioners, accountants, etc etc have to travel to and throw. 3. Obsession with micromanaging every industry. In a typical week when Parliament is sitting, as many as 800 different pieces of legislation might be voted on, ranging from directives on the shape of bananas, to quotas on fishing. Every industry has had a constant barrage of red tape thrown at it, hauling prices skywards because of the implementation costs. This is tied in to the excessive bureaucracy above, but I did not include the impact on industries in that assessment. 4. Economic protectionism - you could argue to some extent this is a good thing - keeping British farmers for example, and other countries important industries going by some sort of subsidy, but because non European countries are not able to sell things like fruit and vegetables to us, the cost of buying food remains artificially high. It could well be argued, that by removing the protectionist policies, British farmers, and other important European industries would be able to compete just as well, and so could remain in business. 5. Assumption that integration is inevitable. The EU has become a self fulfilling prophecy by which eurocrats, technocrats, and small-time national leaders talk themselves into more and more integration, because they view it as progress in the project of European political integration. And when you get career technocrats from a newish institution like the EU - as a man I cannot remember once said, "[img]It is extremely difficult to get a man to see something, when his job depends upon him not seeing it"[/img] 6. Size leads to tragically slow foreign policy and trade negotiations. It has taken decades for the EU to negotiate a trade deal with the USA, China and other leading emerging and important markets. This is because the negotiation not only involves EU-interest served representatives, but also people negotiating for each member country, albeit with a lesser significance. It is highly likely, if the UK were independent of EU policy making, we would have enjoyed a free trade deal with the USA for years by now. Instead, it is only just emerging. 7. The Euro was never necessary, and has caused more problems than it has solved. The inequality between Germany and Greece was always significant, but by effectively allowing Greece to use the same currency, and therefore similar interest rates as Germany, people in a traditionally tighter country go out and spend flamboyantly due to the rapid reduction in borrowing costs - leading to like we have seen - shocking amounts of public and national debt. There are a few more reasons, but this essay should be enough to keep people debating for a while now! 1998 110 300Tdi White Hard Top Last edited by Interlet on 27th Jun 2014 11:17pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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27th Jun 2014 11:14pm |
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| jimbob7 Member Since: 06 Jul 2013 Location: uk Posts: 2055 |
Oops, my bad,sorry
 ,the UK cant veto the EU,There were a recent "request" from the EU wanting the UK to lower it's taxes on booze and fags,UK said no. Pov.spec,ftw. 2006, 110,TD5. |
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27th Jun 2014 11:15pm |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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Germany doesn't want us to leave, as they'll have to foot an even bigger part of the total budget. Merkel made a last minute phone call to Cameron to tell him that a back door deal could be done on something that might mean a lot to Britain if Cameron didn't oppose Juncker's position appointment. Fortunately Cameron would have no part in such a back door deal. Even those that are pro-EU should oppose this bloke. Why? Because he will bring about Britain's exit by going even further down the federalist road. So the EU has shot itself in the foot. The wise and clever move would have been to placate Cameron and give him help in fighting people like me who want out of the EU, by installing a reformist, someone who will oversee much-needed change. Instead they have very foolishly put in place someone who will drive the EU toward even greater central control. That doesn't sit well with the 'Right' in parliaments like ours who see erosion of state control. The EU will rue the day, and the usually-canny Merkel will come to understand that she has made a mistake, which will push Britain more toward exit. The EU CANNOT be reformed. Cameron has been brow-beaten with that fact today. Surely even he can now see that, and we might even see him advise the British people to vote 'out' in 2017. It's a good day for those like me who want out, as the EU will now go even further down the crazy road, and dig its own grave. For a minute there it looked like they would see sense and see Cameron's point. But no, like a huge tanker, the EU has gone too far to make a turn. It can't be reformed and will eventually break up. Excellent.
In 2017 the rules change to majority voting, which will see vetoes end. This is when the EU will play its trump card and destroy London as a financial centre - it's what they have wanted to do for years. If we're not out by 2020 then boy are we going to suffer financially, even our rebate will end. Now left. |
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27th Jun 2014 11:17pm |
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| Cupboard Member Since: 21 Mar 2014 Location: Suffolk Posts: 2971 
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I really, really want the EU to work, but GAH. So broken.
Things like subsidies work well to tackle a specific problem, less so when they're universal. At the moment the farming subsidies are effectively subsidising the supermarkets but with lots of people on the way creaming off a bit for themselves. Incidentally, UK science does well out of the EU, every £1 we put in to the EU science pot we get £1.40 or so back. |
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28th Jun 2014 9:56am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19677
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The EU just needs some work on it and individual countries that have issues regarding the laws. (For various genuine reasons) should be allowed exceptions.
The trouble is with a lot of the EU laws is that many of them are fools laws I.e. Common sense procedure that now has become law but involves often or not spending money that need not have been previously for something that is perfectly adequate. E marking for example springs to mind. Another issue is that there is lots of people living in this country in severe poverty. (Demonised as scroungers etc when they simply have been made redundant or cannot get a job) They do not then get the support they need, get treated like a slave and have to wait weeks just to get £60 JSA for example. And what does Cameron do? Send a lot of money abroad instead....  |
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28th Jun 2014 10:53am |
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| leeds Member Since: 28 Dec 2009 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 8578
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If you look at individual budgets the UK might benefit out of the EU but look at the bigger picture
Now it can be difficult to get an accurate picture as some reports are based in Euros and some in GBP. Some figures are based on GDP whereas others are per capita The UK gets a rebate on contributions colloquially know as Maggies rebate UK NET contribution to EU budget is £9,679,000,000 That is after the UK rebate of £3,172,000,000 and public sector receipts of £4,020,000,000 So the cost to the UK public per year is £151 per person, including babies, pensioners etc Basically UK is the second largest net contributor to the EU budget after the UK rebate Now who are the biggest benefactors out of the EU? Poland, Greece, Hungary. Surprise surprise all the former Soviet bloc countries are net benefactors out of the EU. Now why are former Soviet bloc countries keen to get EU membership The EU is funded by Germany, UK, Italy, France and the Netherlands. Now IF the UK left the EU then the other major net contributors would have to find an extra £2,500,000,000 each to continue funding the EU budget. Now why does Germany want the UK to stay in the EU?? EU budget has risen something like 35% over the last few years despite their so called 'belt tightening' Figures are official UK government figures here Brendan |
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28th Jun 2014 11:08am |
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| Interlet Member Since: 10 Oct 2011 Location: Norwich Posts: 461
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The main problem is that in virtually every area it imposes its will on, things get more complicated, more expensive, and less democratic. 1998 110 300Tdi White Hard Top
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28th Jun 2014 11:20am |
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| ARC99 Member Since: 19 Feb 2013 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 1831 
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I feel that it is about time we got out of the EU and did away with all the imposed laws and regulations.
We can still trade with them as was the original idea. Have we forgotten those who went to war to prevent Germany taking over Europe and keep this country free? Don't make old people mad. We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to  us off.
Richard |
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28th Jun 2014 11:31am |
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| custom90 Member Since: 21 Jan 2010 Location: South West, England. Posts: 19677
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That last sentence above is never a truer word too, I've often though the same.
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28th Jun 2014 11:51am |
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| What puddle? Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Reading Posts: 952
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I say again, the EU CANNOT be reformed, so it's all academic anyway. Apart from anything else, there isn't the time before majority voting starts in 2017. Think of the type of people you're dealing with here, remember the deliberations over Bosnia? Decades would be required - to negotiate and persuade. But it isn't going to happen. The EU is a left wing ideal of state control, and those in control won't relinquish it - Jesus, these people STILL think that monetary union was a good idea! Reform (needed more than ever, and quick) isn't going to happen. I look forward to the vote in 2017 if Cameron is still PM. If Miliband gets in, then Britain, just now recovering, will be doomed to ever more weakness, and this country (that is not the country it was when you were young) will be a shadow of its former self. So sad, when you think what our forefathers fought for. Now left.
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28th Jun 2014 2:03pm |
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