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geobloke



Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4350

United Kingdom 
Castor Corrected Swivel Balls - Anyone used them?
Morning All. So the time has finally come to replace the swivel balls (chalices) on Miffy (2003 TD5 110 196k miles) and overhaul the axle ends. She has a modest lift, which may or may not have contributed to the bottom swivel bearing collapsing this weekend...

Out of interest does anyone have castor corrected swivel balls fitted to their LR and is it worth it?

I have done the castor corrected radius arm route before, but as I have to change the swivel balls I am interested to know.

Cheers in advance. Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
Post #724341 20th Aug 2018 10:55am
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geobloke



Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4350

United Kingdom 
Eeeshk this is not looking good... 11 views and no comments... Shocked
Post #724345 20th Aug 2018 11:16am
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16809

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
it is hard to see how the lift would have contributed to the failure of the lower swivel bearing. On the basis that you had neither handling nor geometry problems (at least none that you were aware of) before, I would stick with standard.
Post #724367 20th Aug 2018 1:32pm
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geobloke



Member Since: 06 Nov 2012
Location: Nottinghamshire
Posts: 4350

United Kingdom 
Thanks Blackwolf. Thumbs Up
Post #724368 20th Aug 2018 1:34pm
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ickle



Member Since: 22 Jul 2010
Location: South Vendee
Posts: 1726

France 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Alpine White
On the basis that there would have to be a matched pair of ends and looking to the future if you or another owner has to replace one, (especially in the back end of nowhere) I'd be with BW and use standard with castor corrected arms, at least you can re bush those with standard parts and would have to do something major to need to replace the arms....

Keith
Post #724403 20th Aug 2018 4:32pm
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donmacn



Member Since: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Nth Scotland
Posts: 1829

well, fwiw I have them on my truck.

Years ago, just after I had a chassis swap done, I started getting a nasty case of 'death wobble' when the nearside wheel ran over any irregularities in the road surface. Given the chassis swap, all the bushes etc were new.

I tried various things - steering damper; wheel balancing with dynabeads; visiting and revisiting the swivel preload in case they were too loose. I can't remember all the details as it is about 14/15 years ago

In the end I came across the castor corected swivels and radius arms and gave them a go - the problem disappeared. They've been on ever since, with no problems at all. I find the steering very responsive and the car sits beatifully in a straight line with minimal steering needed. Considering it's 24 years old, I'm happy with that.

I picked it up recently from the latest chassis swap. Just to check things I let it run along a good length of dual carriageway with my hands hovering over, but not touching the wheel. It must have been four or five hundred yards before I had to do anything.

I don't know for sure what was causing the 'death wobble' but I'm pretty confident the castor corrected swivels and arms made it disappear.

Just fwiw. I'm also pretty sure it all just uses standard bushes and bearings. Donald

1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong
(The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html )
2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8

in the past..
RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi
1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box
1993 Discovery 300Tdi

not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper...
Post #724409 20th Aug 2018 5:05pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16809

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
Interesting, I presume it isn't lifted?

Assuming this is the case, fitting your "altered castor" swivels and arms (I won't call them "corrected" since they actually won't be correct for your geometry) will have increased the castor angle and will give you a stronger self centering action. It is easy to see why it has helped with your wobble, but it won't have corrected whatever the root cause was. But it works, so it doesn't really matter.
Post #724414 20th Aug 2018 5:19pm
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donmacn



Member Since: 06 Nov 2017
Location: Nth Scotland
Posts: 1829

Hi BW,

You're right, not lifted, just standard.

At the time I do remember thinking it was a 'workaround' but not actually tracking down the problem - but I'd tried so many other things I was running out of options. Donald

1994 Defender 300Tdi 110 SW - owned since 2002 - 230k miles and going strong
(The 'rolling restoration' or tinkering thread: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic58538.html )
2000 Range Rover P38 4.0L V8

in the past..
RR classic - fitted with 200Tdi
1984 RR classic - V8 with ZF auto box
1993 Discovery 300Tdi

not to mention the minis and the Type 2 VW camper...
Post #724428 20th Aug 2018 5:46pm
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jst



Member Since: 14 Jan 2008
Location: Taunton
Posts: 7664

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 USW Stornoway Grey
i had them fitted as std when i replaced with Force9 axles and ran 2" lift.

run another vehicle lifted 35mm no correction
ran another for 10years with 2" lift no correction.

was there much between them - nope. would i choose to replace with caster corrected swivels - nope. i consider them unnecessary. Cheers

James
110 XS Utility
130 Puma Station wagon/camper (in the making)
90 Puma Hardtop
Post #724526 21st Aug 2018 8:55am
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Grenadier



Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5765

France 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey
Had a Google, cannot find much info. Is Castor a brand name or is it a design type? What is the apparent difference between Castor and OE? No plans, Keen to add some more knowledge to my still infinitesimally small Defender braino-paedia. Thumbs Up Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey
Post #724555 21st Aug 2018 11:42am
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Ramsay



Member Since: 30 Sep 2015
Location: Moffat, Dumfries & Galloway
Posts: 623

Scotland 1995 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Auto Keswick Green
Caster angle is a way to describe how the steering part of the front axle is not exactly vertical. It helps with being able to turn the wheels and handling. See also Toe-in and wheel alignment.

This product info gives why you might use them.

https://www.paddockspares.com/castor-corre...-1998.html 1995 Defender 110 CSW
1971 SIIA Lightweight
Post #724562 21st Aug 2018 12:13pm
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Grenadier



Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5765

France 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey
Thanks Ramsay. Thumbs Up Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey
Post #724563 21st Aug 2018 12:14pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16809

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey
It's the angle between the a vertical transverse plane through the axle centre and the axis of the swivel pins.

If viewed from the side, the swivel pin axis would if projected downwards hit the ground at a point forward forward of the centre of the wheel, and it is this property which makes the steering self-centre. If the castor angle was zero the steering would be horribly unstable, and if it was negative the steering would not self-centre at all, but would fly to full lock if you let go of the wheel. (This is also the reason why you can't reverse a vehicle you're towing on an "A"-frame).

It is one of several crucial geometric properties of the steering axle, the scrub radius being probably the next most important for predictable stable steering.


Last edited by blackwolf on 28th Jul 2020 10:13am. Edited 1 time in total
Post #724604 21st Aug 2018 3:41pm
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NickMc



Member Since: 01 Oct 2014
Location: Norn Iron
Posts: 1546

Northern Ireland 2006 Defender 90 Td5 HT Bonatti Grey
Have you got wheel spacers fitted? I’ve seen people throw tons of parts and money at them, I removed the wheel spacers and problem solved Rolling Eyes also corrosion around the hub face, spacers and discs and it just gets multiplied as you get further out with spacers. Return to center steering dampers too are stupid and horrible on Defenders.
Post #724730 21st Aug 2018 11:03pm
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Grenadier



Member Since: 23 Jul 2014
Location: The foot of Mont Blanc...
Posts: 5765

France 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Corris Grey
blackwolf wrote:
It's the angle between the a vertical transverse plane through the axle centre and the axis of the swivel pins.

If viewed from the side, the swivel pin axis would if projected downwards hit the ground at a point forward forward of the centre of the wheel, and it is this property which makes the steering self-centre. If the camber angle was zero the steering would be horribly unstable, and if it was negative the steering would not self-centre at all, but would fly to full lock if you let go of the wheel. (This is also the reason why you can't reverse a vehicle you're towing on an "A"-frame).

It is one of several crucial geometric properties of the steering axle, the scrub radius being probably the next most important for predictable stable steering.


Never less than a top-drawer answer from you BlackWolf. Ta Thumbs Up Monsieur Le Grenadier

I've not been everywhere, but it's on my list.....

2011 Puma 110DC - Corris Grey
Post #724783 22nd Aug 2018 10:50am
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