↓ Advertise on Defender2 ↓

Home > Td5 > Air in Fuel - Purge issues [updated further]
Post Reply  Down to end
Page 1 of 1
Print this entire topic · 
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue
Air in Fuel - Purge issues [updated further]

I am running out of ideas now. As per my other post from a while back i did my injector seals a little while back and fuel system was noise/air free. After changing my fuel filter the other week i just dont seem to be able to get the air to purge out of the system.

I have put a new air bleed valve on the filter housing this morning but still wont fully prime. After 5 full purge cycles the pump is still very noisy and the sound of air moving each time it starts up. I dont see that it can be injector seals as the engine isnt being run between purges/attempts so no combustion gas leaking. Oil level is perfect with no smell of diesel. No sign of leaks anywhere 1/2 tank of diesel.

Engine fires up perfectly after purges have run but usually stutters if the purge hasnt been done. Does anyone have any ideas?

Cheers Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup


Last edited by rallysteve on 11th Aug 2018 4:07pm. Edited 2 times in total

Post #715021 28th Jun 2018 5:10pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

Any suggestions at all?

Has run 6 purge cycles in a row without starting the engine and it still sounds terrible (gurgly and pump screaming). Have checked around all of the system and there are no signs of a leak.

Maybe i should change the pump?

Cheers
Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #716669 8th Jul 2018 9:06am
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Intercept



Member Since: 27 Feb 2017
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 267

United Kingdom 2002 Defender 110 Td5 Black LE Java Black

Whilst looking for ideas for my own Td5 non-starting thread yesterday (it's still not working properly Sad ) I recall reading that fuel pump screaming due to air ingress was solved by replacing O-rings. The system was sucking in air via a dodgy seal so the purge cycles were doomed to fail. I can't remember whether the offending part was at the LP fuel pump, the filter or at the pressure regulator, but this could be something to investigate.

Post #716683 8th Jul 2018 10:32am
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
mk1collector



Member Since: 17 Sep 2009
Location: huddersfield
Posts: 6227

England 2004 Defender 110 Td5 CSW Bonatti Grey

As you say this started after fitting a fuel filter I’d start there. Buy a new genuine fuel filter and check the whole filter head before fitting. Ray
My build thread
http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic17615.html

Post #716685 8th Jul 2018 10:46am
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

Cheers both. I did take the filter back off (genuine one) and make sure the sealing faces were clean. The filter head is relatively new too as the old one was a bit crusty.

I am sure it cant be injector seals again this time. Not only because they have recently been changed but also because the issue is apparent without running the engine. If the injector copper seals have gone combustion gas gets into the fuel systen which is what i have had before. If it is the o rings leaking, diesel ends up in the sump. My oil level is perfect with no change and no diesel scent.

As the whole fuel system is pressurised, i dont see how it can be sucking air unless it is within the pump unit itself.

Cheers Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #716727 8th Jul 2018 4:31pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
custom90steve



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West England
Posts: 16258

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

Did you pre fill the fuel filter with diesel before fitting? Watts ÷ Volts = Amps.
Amps X Volts = Watts

Post #716733 8th Jul 2018 4:43pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

No, have never prefilled the filter. Usually 2 purge cycles and it is fine though.

Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #716741 8th Jul 2018 5:16pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

To update this...
The other evening I removed the new fuel filter (about 2months old but driven <100miles) and put an older (also genuine) one I had kept in a bag as it had only been fitted a short time. Also replaced the filter water sensor with a plain drain tap.

After a purge cycle the pump now quietens down. Have run a few purges and there is still the odd gurgle/squelch when the pump first starts but it is definately better than it was before. I can conclude that it must at least partly be down to a faulty filter or water sensor (less than 2yrs old).

I might remove the tank to replace the pump anyway as I have a new pump waiting.

Hopefully after a few drives the air will have gone completely from the filter and the pump will return to just the initial squeak when it first starts up until the pressure is reached.

Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #717513 13th Jul 2018 3:18pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Screbble



Member Since: 26 Apr 2015
Location: West Lancashire
Posts: 858

United Kingdom 2004 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Zambezi Silver

Hope you sort it and good luck with the pump change.

I don't know whether it's coincidence or irony but as I've been watching your thread my fuel pump has just packed up - or at least I believe it has. Do these things just pack up without warning?

I've not had the slightest concern or issue until today when I turned on the ignition and the purging didn't happen. It runs, but no fuel pump sound at all. I've checked all the wiring up to the fuel pump relay and the wiring from the relay as far as I can get to. It's getting 12 v to the purple/white wire out of the seat box.

I wouldn't mind but I've not been tinkering anywhere near the tank.

Could be an earth I suppose?

So the next. Question is how difficult and time consuming is it to get the tank off, as fitting the pump looks straight forward....

Post #717665 14th Jul 2018 2:48pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

Getting the tank off isnt too bad really. Four bolts on the underpan and the filler and breather hoses to start with.

First time i took mine off i broke one of the fuel pipes on top of the tank as it was sub zero temp and everything was brittle. You have to drop the tank a little and then get you arm it to release the four pipes on the tank. Would advise an empty tank though!

To update my situation. After a few drives it is worse than it has been to date. Fuel system full of air after a drive, can even hear the pump screaming when the engine is running. Going to replace the dodgy injector with a new one (hoping that it is okay with 4 having done 125k and one new) and replace all the injector seals and washers again despite having done no more than 1k on them since last change. No sign of diesel in the oil at least so the head should be okay.

Will still swap the pump and put another filter on it. If that doesnt fix it a match may be in order!
Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #717906 15th Jul 2018 8:53pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
Screbble



Member Since: 26 Apr 2015
Location: West Lancashire
Posts: 858

United Kingdom 2004 Defender 90 Td5 XS CSW Zambezi Silver

Hope you sorted it Steve, and thanks again for the pointers.

I swapped my fuel pump as planned. What a pig of a job Exclamation

Even though I'd previously replaced and greased all the bolts, jubilee clips etc. in order to save time, that pesky tank guard caused a lot of swearing Evil or Very Mad

The actual pump change once the tank was out was a doddle - and I shall repeat the advice of others - ensure the area is kept scrupulously clean. I spent a lot of time cleaning (and vacuuming) the top of the tank around the pump 'locking ring' and I also cable-tied small food bags to the inlet and breather pipes before tank removal.

At this point I will also state something probably obvious, and something others have already said, but if you can afford it, buy a OEM/VDO pump. I bought a mid-range product, and the quality isn't a match for the the VDO. Let's see how long it lasts...

Replacing the fuel tank wasn't too bad, but replacing that tank guard grrrrrrr Evil or Very Mad

In hindsight, I should have cut it as others have done and prefabricated new brackets.

I reckon that fighting with the tank guard put about 2-3 hours on the job. The neighbours commented on my swearing Embarassed

It's done now (including LR fuel filter change) and it runs perfectly. If anything, the new pump is slightly noisier than the original VDO (again as others have said).

Thankfully although the old pump was clearly not working, it was spotlessly clean, particularly the filter at the base, which I suppose is a good sign.

Fingers crossed it'll be right for our annual visit to beautiful Dorset over summer Thumbs Up

Post #719500 24th Jul 2018 8:23pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

Well, not fully completed the work yet due to some other issues, but have now removed the injectors, as suspected No3 copper washer has been leaking again due to the damage to the end of the injector (see pic). This injector has now been replaced with a genuine LR one (worth noting that the Genuine one bought from Brit-Car is actually a refurb one judging from the calibration value being stuck over the original code). I have also changed the fuel filter and the other injector washers using new retainer bolts this time. Injector seats in the head, although not too bad have been cleaned up to be spotless.

Just need to remove the tank to replace the pump this weekend to complete the work. Sadly i cant try it out just yet as i am still waiting for a new exhaust manifold gasket after one of my new 'upgraded' Wurth studs snapped whilst tightening up with the last one. I know others rave about these studs but i am totally unimpressed. The shorter threaded length (approx 8mm) is far to short for thread engagement into an alloy head and the longer length makes fitting two of the nuts tricky as they are too close to the manifold collector pipe. The washers sent with my kit are also undersize and don't even fit on the studs (assume they are either M7 or imperial. I have now got a set of Alfa Romeo studs which are 19mm thread on either end.

Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #721062 2nd Aug 2018 3:19pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue


Click image to enlarge


Note the missing section of the inner sealing ring which allows blowby. 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #721073 2nd Aug 2018 4:38pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

So, fuel tank removed, cleaned out (not really dirty at all) and new VDO pump fitted. Couple of purge cycles run and pump is lovely and quiet. Fired straight up even after doing the injector seals. Took the bottom plastic casing off the pump to find this Shocked


Click image to enlarge



Idle was horrible, so borrowed a nanocom and coded the new injector to match the calibration sticker on it. Tick over still a little rougher than i remember but not too bad. Checked the balance values on the nanocom and they look like this:


Click image to enlarge


Guess which is the new injector! Not sure what to do now....

Steve 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #722569 9th Aug 2018 7:55pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Reply with quote
rallysteve



Member Since: 10 Feb 2014
Location: Rotherham
Posts: 957

United Kingdom 1984 Defender 90 V8 Petrol PU Caledonian Blue

An update on the update:
Done about 75miles in it, has terrible diesel knock when pulling away, lumpy idle and no top end power.
Injector balance still in the range of 20-30 difference. MAF readings normal, boost readings a little low (.96bar max).

Decided to swap back in the old injector which i knew was functionally fine, recoded and fired straight up. Idle perfect, power restored and boost upto about 1.1-1.2bar. Cylinder balance almost perfect (see image)

So to summarise:

New genuine Land Rover injector = 3rd party refurb in a LR box = defective injector Confused

Brit-car will be getting a phone call first thing monday morning.



Click image to enlarge
 02' 110 TD5 Double Cab
84' 90 3.9 V8 Caged Pickup

Post #722865 11th Aug 2018 4:04pm
View user's profile Send private message View poster's gallery Post Reply
Post Reply  Back to top
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT + 1 Hour

Jump to  
Previous Topic | Next Topic >
Posting Rules
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Site Copyright © 2006-2018 Futuranet Ltd & Martin Lewis