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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 47

France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

Bluest wrote:
Dry splined shaft couplings are used in all manner of applications without problem which leads me to think the lack of lubrication might not be the root cause. Greasing/oiling the splines may just be a sticking plaster. I'd guess either the alignment is off or more likely there is axial movement. I have never seen the Puma shafts, so maybe someone else can comment whether either is possible.


Rust is the issue because the rust inside grinds down the spline. The rust is harder than the steel.
Physical and chemical parameters in the crevice accelerate the corrosion process (=crevice corrosion).

Wear resistance and corrosion protection are therefore interdependent.

"However, in the presence of a corrosive environment, the fatigue limit of the materials is greatly reduced, and thus determining the fatigue limit becomes more difficult. That is why it is very common to enhance the corrosion resistance of materials while also improving wear or fatigue resistance." (https://www.corrosionpedia.com/2/1513/prevention/surface-modification/nitriding-for-corrosion-and-wear-fatigue-resistance)

My spline (and any other spline I heard about) has been covered with rust while steel disappeared in the spline.

Spline failure may therefore depend on corrosion speed ... some cars rust faster than others Whistle

Post #712268 13th Jun 2018 10:35pm
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doublea



Member Since: 12 Jul 2011
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 358

Scotland 2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 Adventure Phoenix Orange

Bit of corrosion here! Inside the dust cover there is a significant quantity of rust and shiny particles. There is discernible movement between shaft and hub, which I expect is causing the clunk on taking up drive. 39 month old, 30k miles 2.2 110. Unlubricated splined shafts eh!


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Click image to enlarge
 Current Steeds:
2015 110 UW in Grasmere Green
2003 BMW F650 the Hack
2000 Elise
1992 Ducati 888 (still in bits but soon to be st4s powered)

Post #712415 14th Jun 2018 11:53pm
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meeerrrk



Member Since: 12 Feb 2017
Location: Surrey
Posts: 530

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Stornoway Grey

Mine went this week too - 2010 with 59k Miles.

Also took the output flange with it making it even more painful! Big Cry My 90 Project : http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic52774.html

Post #712583 16th Jun 2018 8:12am
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Morepower



Member Since: 08 Jan 2013
Location: Fife, Scotland
Posts: 499

New Zealand 2016 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 HT Corris Grey

Yep, Typical LR "High quality finishing and top notch engineering".... Tragically, Someone will get seriously hurt or killed before LR do what they should have done from the start and re-called them for this woeful piece of "engineering".....
Remember, These joins should have grease from the factory (quote LR blurb)... But don't due to cost savings on time and material.....

Tim It doesn't matter how bad it is, It can always get worse...

2013 Bowler 110
2016 Bowler 90 Rally Spec

Post #712724 17th Jun 2018 8:15am
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JOW240725



Member Since: 04 May 2015
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 4574

United Kingdom 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Orkney Grey

Curious, as the one just replace for third time, was fitted under warranty at 3 years old. The broken shaft looks just like all the photos showing a bone dry rusty connection. So this means JLR dealer replaced it with no grease, despite this being the known issue. Or the grease has completely dried and disappeared over the last 3 years and it broke anyway?

I know it was well greased this time so I guess I'll only find out in 3 years time! James

MY2012 110 2.2TDCi XS SW Orkney Grey - http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic43410.html
MY1990 110 200TDi SW beautifully faded Portofino Red

Post #712730 17th Jun 2018 8:24am
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Fifth Horseman



Member Since: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Lanarkshire
Posts: 309

United Kingdom 2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black

nosnibod wrote:
...Ashcroft shaft, leaking and vibration were the two issues I've been told about by IRB,...

The latter Ashcroft kits had a modified seal arrangement to reduce the possibility of leaks - although if it leaks then it proves the joint is being lubricated!

blackwolf wrote:
...The output adaptor shaft on the Puma is a floating shaft, it has a loose-fitting spring ring arrangement to locate it which allows a small amount of axial movement on the splines...

The outer part of the Ashcroft kit virtually locks the adaptor shaft in place so should reduce the potential for wear due to unwanted movement.

It would be interesting to see an Ashcroft kit after say 50K miles on a vehicle that previously had suffered shaft failure at low miles.

Post #712733 17th Jun 2018 8:33am
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 8727

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Fifth Horseman wrote:
The outer part of the Ashcroft kit virtually locks the adaptor shaft in place so should reduce the potential for wear due to unwanted movement.


I don't think it makes much difference since since the shaft is still located by the spring ring, although the limit of movement may be smaller if the spring ring fails to locate the shaft.

Fifth Horseman wrote:
It would be interesting to see an Ashcroft kit after say 50K miles on a vehicle that previously had suffered shaft failure at low miles.


Absolutely! There must be high-mileage Ashcroft shafts around now and it would be extremely interesting to see one.

Post #712739 17th Jun 2018 9:10am
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benh78



Member Since: 29 May 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 5

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Santorini Black

Would it be possible to raise this as group complaint in the uk via something like watchdog? I’ve not had this issue yet but thanks to forums I know it’s in my future. Turbo hoses blowing off/ splitting seem to have been kind of fixed but at least Land Rover have tried to do things to address although silicone hoses and a bigger better intercooler are prob better fixes then JLR.

Post #712740 17th Jun 2018 9:12am
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nosnibod



Member Since: 15 Aug 2007
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 294

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Corris Grey

I did some searching and couldn’t find any examples of long-term usage of the Ashcroft shaft. Dave
Gracie - 2015 110 XS County Station Wagon

Post #712741 17th Jun 2018 9:12am
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 47

France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

doublea wrote:
Bit of corrosion here! Inside the dust cover there is a significant quantity of rust and shiny particles. There is discernible movement between shaft and hub, which I expect is causing the clunk on taking up drive. 39 month old, 30k miles 2.2 110. Unlubricated splined shafts eh!


Hi doublea, I'd have a short visit at the retailer.
The spigot bore is part of the service schedule.
The retailer has to check for corrosion, too.

MartinK wrote:
Click on the picture below to enlarge...


Click image to enlarge


Fist service is 12 months or 12000 miles, so yes, yours is due (unless it's already been done)


I also experienced that the retailers leave some points of the service schedule.
That's why I service on my own / on demand with retailers and indies.

Post #712815 17th Jun 2018 4:32pm
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 47

France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

nosnibod wrote:
I did some searching and couldn’t find any examples of long-term usage of the Ashcroft shaft.


Yap. I had an Ashcroft kit fitted and did a three week's research prior to the decision.
I did not find anything about a broken Ashcroft kit.
Only the Genuine Land Rover "dry splines" / "greased splines" may brake multiple times.

I suppose the kit has been shipped from 2014 onwards. We'll have to wait about 2...3 years if we want to know for sure Smile


I'm still wondering why there is no shaft failure on the early Pumas - MY 2007...2010.
It seems like everything began in 2011. Ashcroft developed their fix a few years later.

The key question is : Why don't the early Pumas fail?

Post #712817 17th Jun 2018 4:43pm
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Fernando



Member Since: 25 Oct 2017
Location: CABA
Posts: 25

Argentina 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Bonatti Grey

With my cougar 2008 I already have 200 thousand km without touching anything.

Post #712821 17th Jun 2018 4:59pm
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Julie



Member Since: 07 Oct 2017
Location: Nantes
Posts: 47

France 2012 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 SW Keswick Green

doublea wrote:
which I expect is causing the clunk on taking up drive. 39 month old, 30k miles 2.2 110. Unlubricated splined shafts eh!


Land Rover Genuine Quality Wink
This causes the clunk between moving forwards and backwards:

Post #712825 17th Jun 2018 5:15pm
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lohr500



Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 358

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

[quote="Julie"]

doublea wrote:
Bit of corrosion here! Inside the dust cover there is a significant quantity of rust and shiny particles. There is discernible movement between shaft and hub, which I expect is causing the clunk on taking up drive. 39 month old, 30k miles 2.2 110. Unlubricated splined shafts eh!

Hi doublea, I'd have a short visit at the retailer.
The spigot bore is part of the service schedule.
The retailer has to check for corrosion, too.


I bet the service schedule item referring to spigot bore relates to applying copper slip to the mating area between the alloy wheel and the outer area of the drive flange. Not to the half shaft ends.
I suspect most dealers won't even remove the road wheels and they will check for disk/pad wear by looking at the caliper with the wheel in place. Whistle

The corrosion check will also be limited to bodywork and chassis.

I'll eat my hat if any any corrosion inspection has ever involved removing the drive shaft plastic caps to check for red powder within. Or a check on the output shaft. Did have a 2011MY 110 XS Station Wagon in Stornoway Grey until it was nicked.

Post #712884 17th Jun 2018 8:20pm
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lohr500



Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 358

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

benh78 wrote:
Would it be possible to raise this as group complaint in the uk via something like watchdog? I’ve not had this issue yet but thanks to forums I know it’s in my future. Turbo hoses blowing off/ splitting seem to have been kind of fixed but at least Land Rover have tried to do things to address although silicone hoses and a bigger better intercooler are prob better fixes then JLR.


I would also be interested in how to escalate this.

Any lawyers on the forum who could provide an insight into the chances of a successful class act or equivalent?

Sadly, I fear only significant negative media reports, or worse still, a major accident caused by the output shaft failure, will force JLR into a recall/rework.

I may be paranoid, but every time I drive the Defender, I am wondering if the shaft will let go Sad . Did have a 2011MY 110 XS Station Wagon in Stornoway Grey until it was nicked.

Post #712887 17th Jun 2018 8:27pm
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