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Chedgy90



Member Since: 05 Sep 2017
Location: Somerset
Posts: 16

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 90 300 Tdi HT Rimini Red
Defender 130 + trailer Licences

Hey guys,

Im looking into starting a my own business and thinking of using a Defender 130 as the base vehicle for this, and then accassionally I may need the use of a trailer. What sort of licence would I need If I wanted to get the most out of the potential towing capasity of the 130 which I beleive to be 3500kg? would I need C1E? or just category BE?

Ive come across this on the Gov.uk website?


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Many thanks

Sam

Post #686466 13th Feb 2018 10:51pm
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Bluest



Member Since: 23 Apr 2016
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 1077

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

BE is all you need I think. 2007 110 TDCi Station Wagon XS

Post #686479 13th Feb 2018 11:30pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 8535

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

But you will need a tacho.

Post #686484 13th Feb 2018 11:38pm
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Chedgy90



Member Since: 05 Sep 2017
Location: Somerset
Posts: 16

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 90 300 Tdi HT Rimini Red

Bluest wrote:
BE is all you need I think.


yeah after speaking to a few friends I beleive you are right. someone told me Id need C1 which is for 3500kg - 7500kg vehicles

Post #686664 14th Feb 2018 11:34pm
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Chedgy90



Member Since: 05 Sep 2017
Location: Somerset
Posts: 16

United Kingdom 1994 Defender 90 300 Tdi HT Rimini Red

blackwolf wrote:
But you will need a tacho.


Will i? whys that?

Post #686665 14th Feb 2018 11:34pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 8535

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Because with only very few exceptions the law requires a tachograph in any vehicle operating with a gross train weight in excess of 3500kg when used in connection with any trade or business whether or not you are doing it for profit or reward.

It is very easy to fall foul of this, for example if you take a horse trailer to a horsey event where you may win a trophy, it constitutes a reward and you need a tacho (there is case law to establish this). In the same way if you towed your S1 to a show and won a prize for it, you need a tacho. If you help your friend, who runs a caravan site, by collecting a caravan for him, you need a tacho.

There are some very limited exemptions, and in some cases the law requires a tachograph to be fitted but does not require it to be used, which seems particularly daft but is the case.

If you run a business using a 3500kg GVW Defender and how a trailer you will definitely need one.

You may want to have a read of this old thread, which covered the subject quite thoroughly:

http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic12485.html

Post #686668 14th Feb 2018 11:57pm
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Wangers



Member Since: 19 Jan 2013
Location: West London
Posts: 244

United Kingdom 1995 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Aintree Green

There's a few things playing here:

The vehicle, 130 has a Gross Vehicle wEight of 3500Kg, that is when fully loaded IT, and it alone, can not weigh more than 3500Kg inc drivers, fuels, oils, and load. For this you only require Category B entitlement.

Second is the trailer - depending on the plated max weight that the 130 can tow, will give youa train weight (the trin being the vhicle and the trailer's combined GVWs). There are then things like braked or unbraked trailers, and the limits on max atio of unbraked to vehicle weights ets - ie as long as the trailer is no more than 50% of the weight of the towing vehicles ya de ya.

For the act of attaching something to the rear of the vehicle (towing) there MAY be additional licence requirements. If you passed your car test before Dec 1997 then you can tow upto 3500KG (hence all the coffin dodgers with massive caravans), between Dec 97 and Dec 2000 you can tow somthing with a GVW of 750Kg (hence the millenials with camping trailers but no caravans), after 2000 you can not tow anything.

Unless .... you take a B+E test. This will entitle those who go their licences after dec 97 to tow over 750Kg, and those after 2001 to tow anything.

No need for C1 / C etc s the VEHICLE is not more than 3500Kg.

That's the licence and vehicle sorted.

Now for the 'Commercial' side.

So the vehicle is owned (?) by the company and is insured (?) for bsuiness use inclusive of towing busness owned(?) trailers.

What are you intending to carry in the trailer?

Your goods (lets say tools of the trade, but no stock, so like a scaffolder carring pipes and fixings)
Your goods and stock (what you;re going to sell on site - like a catering wagon, carries food, but this is to be sold for a profit)
Someone else's goods (either as haulage from a to b, or, and this is the grey areas, lets say you collect something, take it to your premises on your trailer, fix it and return it to them on your trailer. though you are fixing it, it;s not actaully yours, thus this journey is haulage of someone else's stuff)

But now, as you Gross Train Weight is over 3500Kg (130 is plated to 3500Kg, and trailer is over 1Kg, thus OVER 3500Kg), you are required to follow the EU drivers hours rules, and to record the driving hours of this larger vehicle combination, ensuring that you take sufficient daily, weeky and fortnightly rest periods, so you o not dive tired.

For this thee shall require thine tacho - and to have it fitted, installed, calibrated as per EU regs, and to make, record, download, analyse and action any infringements identified on said tachgraph data head unit (vehicle - every 90 days) oh, and your Tacho card also (28 days).

You will not need an Operators Licence as the vehicle on it's own is less than 3500Kg, it;s only when you add the trailer that you go over. TY&GN
10 years in a WOLF, WIMIK and Snatch and this is all I have to show!

Post #686763 15th Feb 2018 2:41pm
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custom90steve



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West England
Posts: 16078

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

After 2000 you cannot tow anything? That's not correct.

It always was 750kg trailer inc load from 97.

I think, but don't quote me that there still is entitlement.
But as around 2013 or similar date, I think it's now 500kg but I couldn't clarify without looking it up. Watts ÷ Volts = Amps.
Amps X Volts = Watts

Post #686787 15th Feb 2018 4:28pm
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Wangers



Member Since: 19 Jan 2013
Location: West London
Posts: 244

United Kingdom 1995 Defender 110 300 Tdi CSW Aintree Green

From 1997 it's 3500kg combined, depengin on the size of the trailer.

Licences issued from 1 January 1997

If you passed your car driving test on or after 1 January 1997 you can:

drive a car or van up to 3,500kg maximum authorised mass (MAM) towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM

So this is the 130 plus a small trailer/

OR

tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

So for a 1000kg trailer you would need a vehicle at 2500 or less / 1500 trailer a 2000 vehicle etc. TY&GN
10 years in a WOLF, WIMIK and Snatch and this is all I have to show!

Post #686789 15th Feb 2018 4:44pm
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custom90steve



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West England
Posts: 16078

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

Thumbs Up Mines a 2011 licence and is why I went for an Ifor P8E with cage. Which give me biggest trailer size for my licence but within legal parameters.
Unladen 250kg, and gives me a near half tonne payload.

Anything more and it'd be B+E test required, or tow an empty larger trailer but you could have no load which is no point at all. Watts ÷ Volts = Amps.
Amps X Volts = Watts

Post #686796 15th Feb 2018 5:22pm
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AJC



Member Since: 30 Nov 2015
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 863

United Kingdom 

As blackwolf mentioned, you'd need a Tacho for when towing.

I have my class 1 license but rarely drive the arctic, last year when our pickup was out of action I sued my trailer and D4 to deliver some steel to a job. I got pulled by the fuzz and £300 fine.

A tacho set up for a vehicle is around £500 I believe.

I did do some googling and it suggested you can tow legally minus tacho within a certain radius of a base but I don't know if that's legit or not.

Post #686804 15th Feb 2018 5:51pm
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miker



Member Since: 13 Sep 2015
Location: West London
Posts: 1254

United Kingdom 1999 Defender 110 Td5 CSW Rioja Red

In terms of licensing, anyone can tow a 750kg Gross trailer. Realistically to get above that with a defender you will need a B+E license (very little will sneak into the "3500kg train weight" exemption on any defender. The B+E license really isn't hard if you've spent some time practising and reversing on a smaller trailer.

In terms of commercial towing. Read ALL the paperwork, speak to your local VOSA office if necessary. I spent a lot of time reading and on the phone, and for my particular business need for a trailer I can claim one of the tacho exemptions. However it is worth noting that a lot of what is written has not been tested in the courts, and even the VOSA man I spoke to had to scratch his head and dig through files to come up with an answer.

Operator licensing is a third aspect, and depends upon the UNLADEN weight of the trailer to be exempt. (has to be less than 1050kg I think) But a lot of people will quote this rule as the WEIGHT of the trailer.

Post #686809 15th Feb 2018 6:29pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 5629

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

The horse trailer & winning made me smile - I'm going to have to try and find that case law..

Post #686810 15th Feb 2018 6:31pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 8535

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Yes, it's a bummer that, but in the eyes of the law the rosette you win is a reward, therefore you are using the vehicle and trailer "for profit or reward"! I kid you not, it has been established!

Myself and a friend a while back used to take a display stand and promotional merchandise to various shows. I would tow a 2-tonne Brenderup box with all the display materials with either my Disco or Defender (legal without a tacho because display materials form one of the exemptions to the tacho regs), and he would cram all the merchandise in the back of his pickup (legal because without a trailer it was under 3500kg). We were always really careful not to put anything for sale in the trailer - one sweatshirt in the trailer could have resulted in a very substantial fine.

The biggest problem with the tacho regs (and increasingly motoring law in general) is it is becoming so complex that no-body can actually understand it.

Post #686816 15th Feb 2018 6:53pm
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Supacat



Member Since: 16 Oct 2012
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 5629

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS DCPU Keswick Green

Hey - I found this advice from VOSA which seems to imply that they now have a more relaxed, and dare I say sensible, view to the "reward" element:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syst...owners.pdf

Have to agree about the increasing complexity, this FOI contains many interesting questions, but the one that took the biscuit was entitled "Italian registered goods vehicle on Romanian operator's licence " Laughing

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syst...0_253a.pdf

Post #686943 16th Feb 2018 1:12pm
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