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Happyoldgit



Member Since: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3417

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey
Work "trials" and the young

Ok my wife and I recently had a discussion about those young people who decide to give up studying for further A levels and go on to university but seek an apprenticeship instead.

As an example consider a youngster who has a number of GCSE's and a couple of A's already. They apply for a position and are accepted for a weeks trial, the hours are long, they will be on site for 9.5 hours daily. If successful they will be contracted for a full time apprenticeship. The issue my wife an I were discussing were those surrounding the fact that this trial is unpaid, not even remuneration for travelling expenses are offered.

We have our own views on the issue of non payment for a weeks labour but I would be interested to hear what other people think. Does the fact that a young person is willing to show what they can do and not expect payment demonstrates a degree of dedication or is it exploitation on the part of the prospective employer? What about longer term but unpaid internships - good idea or exploitation? Steve.
Owned numerous Land Rover vehicles of all shapes and sizes over the decades.
Current Defender: A non tarts hand-bagged Puma 110 XS USW.

[Insert something impressive here such as extensive list of previous Land Rovers or examples of your prestigeous and expensive items, trinkets, houses, bikes, vehicles etc]

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Post #650035 13th Sep 2017 10:01am
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LandRoverAnorak



Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 4664

United Kingdom 1992 Defender 90 200 Tdi SW Arles Blue

A lot depends on the circumstances and the nature of the work but in the right setting a short period of 'show what you can do' with an agreed outcome upon successful completion could be more useful than an interview and could be considered character building. Obviously, if the same company does it week in, week out, with different people just to obtain free labour then it's a different story.

Longer term internships though are, IMHO, exploitative. I think I'm right in saying that MP's have recently either been banned or have voluntarily agreed to end the practice of employing interns. 
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Post #650039 13th Sep 2017 10:13am
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mini Anaconda



Member Since: 23 Aug 2016
Location: Thames Valley
Posts: 161

United Kingdom 

Interesting topic - I did well in my GCSEs and A-Levels, but I always wanted to do an apprenticeship in IT rather than go to university. After completing my A-Levels I secured an IT degree level apprenticeship in a very good company, and I'm not/was not ever expected to work for free.
I'm currently doing my second year (I'm 19 now Smile ) and am the only apprentice, but I'm very lucky that I'm in a good company and am treated on the same level as the rest of the team and get to work on the big projects. The company have already said that after my four year apprenticeship they would like me to stay. Thumbs Up

So in short, I think if a company is asking an apprentice to work for free, perhaps they aren't going to treat the apprentice very well if they do take them on. BORG - Bucks & Oxon 4x4 Response Group

Post #650059 13th Sep 2017 11:44am
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custom90steve



Member Since: 21 Jan 2010
Location: South West
Posts: 15061

England 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

^^^^ Well said. Watts ÷ Volts = Amps.
Amps X Volts = Watts

Post #650060 13th Sep 2017 11:45am
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Happyoldgit



Member Since: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Norfolk
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United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey

mini Anaconda wrote:
Interesting topic - I did well in my GCSEs and A-Levels, but I always wanted to do an apprenticeship in IT rather than go to university. After completing my A-Levels I secured an IT degree level apprenticeship in a very good company, and I'm not/was not ever expected to work for free.
I'm currently doing my second year (I'm 19 now Smile ) and am the only apprentice, but I'm very lucky that I'm in a good company and am treated on the same level as the rest of the team and get to work on the big projects. The company have already said that after my four year apprenticeship they would like me to stay. Thumbs Up

So in short, I think if a company is asking an apprentice to work for free, perhaps they aren't going to treat the apprentice very well if they do take them on.


Sounds like you have landed on my feet - well done. I'm pleased to say my eldest, who is a similar age to yourself, is also on the second year of an apprenticeship which he is really enjoying.

Just to clarify the example I gave was for a full week, full time hours, trial [ie five days full time work] for no remuneration financially but if the candidate is successful will lead to a recognised apprenticeship. Steve.
Owned numerous Land Rover vehicles of all shapes and sizes over the decades.
Current Defender: A non tarts hand-bagged Puma 110 XS USW.

[Insert something impressive here such as extensive list of previous Land Rovers or examples of your prestigeous and expensive items, trinkets, houses, bikes, vehicles etc]

http://forums.lr4x4.com

I used to be Miserable ...but now I'm ecstatic.

Post #650068 13th Sep 2017 12:22pm
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Rosco



Member Since: 03 Dec 2010
Location: Burntwood
Posts: 1039

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red

Steve, I work in the construction sector and modern slavery is one of the current hot topics, and I'm pretty certain that if we, or any of our supplychain were found to be "employing" people, trial period or not, without any form of re-numeration we'd be having the slavery act waved at us in a flash. 2007 - Stornoway Grey 90 XS SW - Gone
2002 - Black Discovery II - Gone
2014 - Montalcino Red 110 XS SW

Post #650077 13th Sep 2017 12:49pm
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mini Anaconda



Member Since: 23 Aug 2016
Location: Thames Valley
Posts: 161

United Kingdom 

Happyoldgit wrote:
Just to clarify the example I gave was for a full week, full time hours, trial [ie five days full time work] for no remuneration financially but if the candidate is successful will lead to a recognised apprenticeship.


As I said above, personally I think if a company is asking an apprentice to work for free they probably aren't going to look after them/develop their learning so it's probably not worth their time, and they are just treating them as cheap labour, as opposed to someone they can train up and guide through the company. Thumbs Up BORG - Bucks & Oxon 4x4 Response Group

Post #650081 13th Sep 2017 1:07pm
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rockster57



Member Since: 15 Nov 2014
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 215

United Kingdom 

Is this the thin edge of the "new order" wedge? Typical of the growing gig economy. Whatever next? In-post employees paying for their ongoing vocational training throughout their careers? I'd be interested to know how those who treat prospective apprentices this way justify the lack of remuneration?

Post #650091 13th Sep 2017 1:36pm
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blackwolf



Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 7399

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

Doesn't an unpaid trial fall foul of minimum wage legislation?

Post #650104 13th Sep 2017 2:55pm
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X4SKP



Member Since: 29 Nov 2013
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 1458

United Kingdom 2010 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

Times are changing fast for workers entering the workplace at any level.

My approach as someone who owns a business, and employs others, is that no one, at any level, should work for nothing, and by accepting (or offering) this you indirectly (or directly) support this approach, as tempting as it may appear, it should be avoided.

I did GCES, 2 quick A levels (when you could) and left school at 17, a Mechanical Engineering Apprenticeship
(RAE Farnborough) then Industrial Design Engineering (Central St Martins) all paid work, or supported by the then grant system.

My eldest daughter... GCSE's, A Levels and is now 2/3rds through a Science Degree (Leeds), she is currently on a years placement which is paid, but degree level students in other disciplines around her, law, accountancy, and economics have come across 'intern' placements unpaid...it is tough, but it is a very dangerous route in my opinion to go down.

It is interesting that intern is defined as..
'a student or trainee who works, sometimes without pay, in order to gain work experience'
or
'confine (someone) as a prisoner'

Good Luck to all our young people... SKIP.

Post #650116 13th Sep 2017 3:32pm
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Chocolate



Member Since: 18 May 2012
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 119

United Kingdom 2004 Defender 110 Td5 XS CSW Bonatti Grey

Interesting, but would wonder how insurance would work?
If they are not employed/paid then they would have no contract.
If they are a contractor even they would require insurance.

The days of companies paying for training have long gone, they all want you to pay for your own, as it’s your career.
But then they moan when you say I’m more qualified give me more money.

In the IT industry with some
manufacture’s, the accreditation is to the person, which stay with that person rather than the company.
Therefore, if that person leaves the company loses their accreditation.
If the company has paid for it they lose out, if the individual has paid for it they should get the extra money. Bit catch 22.

I wouldn’t want someone working for a week FOC, no incentive really. 110XS CSW TD5.

Post #650118 13th Sep 2017 3:48pm
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Muddybigdog



Member Since: 11 Apr 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 375

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Zambezi Silver

When I was a kid (bloody long time ago) we all did a weeks work experience that was unpaid, guessing that unpaid apprenticeships for a week are similar but rebadged as a great new political idea. Puma 90 XS - (Welly - ideal for Mud, Water and dealing with the deep ****)
D3 - 2.7 S (Sold)
Freelander 2 HSE -

Post #650186 13th Sep 2017 9:10pm
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Happyoldgit



Member Since: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 3417

United Kingdom 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Corris Grey

To my mind there's a big difference between a weeks work experience, which is part of an educational course, and a formal work trial where candidates are being assessed for suitability for employment / apprenticeship.

Working full time without pay and contract has implications with regard to insurance cover and the like. Steve.
Owned numerous Land Rover vehicles of all shapes and sizes over the decades.
Current Defender: A non tarts hand-bagged Puma 110 XS USW.

[Insert something impressive here such as extensive list of previous Land Rovers or examples of your prestigeous and expensive items, trinkets, houses, bikes, vehicles etc]

http://forums.lr4x4.com

I used to be Miserable ...but now I'm ecstatic.

Post #650244 14th Sep 2017 10:10am
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Muddybigdog



Member Since: 11 Apr 2014
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 375

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Zambezi Silver

Myself and many of my classmates landed employment with the employers afterwards. There is a flip side too, the youngsters can also say to the employers go swivel after their trial, it should be 2-way assessment. Puma 90 XS - (Welly - ideal for Mud, Water and dealing with the deep ****)
D3 - 2.7 S (Sold)
Freelander 2 HSE -

Post #650289 14th Sep 2017 1:45pm
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LiftedDisco



Member Since: 17 Aug 2014
Location: Towcester
Posts: 141

Wow... the consensus is clearly that unpaid internships are a bad thing and so I'm going to stand guilty of supporting, nay... even encouraging, such things...

Our daughter didn't exactly excel at her A levels, with the result that she was accepted onto a Foundation course at Uni with the clear caveat that her performance in the first your should (was expected) to lead to her being 'promoted' to a full degree course beyond the first year.

Her challenge was that this couldn't be confirmed until the results of her first year exams were known and the actual study requirements for the Foundation course were Year 1 - placement year (at workshop level) - Final Year back in Uni whereas the full degree course was Year 1, Year 2, placement and Final Year.

She struggled to get a placement - she's studying Automotive Engineering and every scheme was geared towards students having 2 years of study and experience behind them in order to take a meaningful place in the business whilst on placement. The lesser, craft level, placement (if it had been available) wouldn't have been appropriate for the degree course and would also have put her on a different timeline to the rest of her fellow students...

As such, she was somewhat in limbo - hoping that the first year would go well enough (and being told by lecturers that she was on track for this) and yet wanting to improve her options.

Through various channels we managed to share her CV with someone at JLR, resulting in her spending 3 months of her summer break as an unpaid intern working with one of the engineering and development teams.

This was tough... she was just over 19 and getting to her desk at 7am each morning with a 40 minute commute but she learned an awful lot and developed as a person within a far larger team... something that life hadn't given her until that time.

On returning to Uni for her 2nd year, she was a well rounded and now well experienced person as well as having a commitment from the business that she would be taken forward for a full placement year to cover her 3rd year - she finishes a 15 month (paid) placement tomorrow and has been asked 'where she wants to work' when she finishes her final year!

So, yes... pretty tough and the 'free' placement didn't even cover travel costs which I think is rough - what if we lived in Aberdeen and not relatively close, but the upside is that she was able to drop straight into her placement year with the minimum of stress, knowing the job and able to contribute to the day-to-day running of the team and I'm pretty sure this is also why she's then had the confidence to build her network and relationships to secure the offer of ongoing employment post Uni.

I still can't quite believe my little girl is contemplating life as a fully fledged engineer...

Post #650341 14th Sep 2017 5:50pm
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