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Fifth Horseman

Member Since: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Lanarkshire
Posts: 322

2011 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Santorini Black

The shaft doesn't break, the splines wear (due to lack of/no lubrication and any radial misalignment between gearbox output shaft and transfer box input shaft axis) which gives rise to more play and increased shock loading which in turn accelerates wear until there is not enough spline left to transmit drive.

Also it seems from the wear patterns on failed shafts that at some point the spring ring fails to hold the adaptor shaft in place allowing it to move towards the transfer box, further reducing spline contact area with a consequent increase in spline loading and wear rate.
With the above in mind, it may be possible to temporarily restore drive by removing the transfer box rear cover, pushing the input shaft forwards and then replacing the cover. At this point only a very small area of spline will be meshing but it may be enough to get you home. YMMV (literally)

15th Jul 2017 4:27pm

lohr500

Member Since: 14 Sep 2014
Location: Skipton
Posts: 1285

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Santorini Black

I'm not sure that the shaft actually breaks in the sense of snapping. More that the splines wear to such a point that the outer cup just spins round without transferring motion to the intermediate shaft.

I'm sure I have read reports of repeat failures even with the splines greased and a suggestion that the problem may be due to a slight misalignment of the housings. All in all, a bad design it would seem.

As per above, I wonder if there have been any reported failures with the Ashcroft conversion?

15th Jul 2017 4:41pm

kbf1981

Member Since: 22 Feb 2015
Location: Manchester
Posts: 183

Would changing engine / gearbox fix it? E.g. if you really wanted to over enginer a solution, could you do an LS3 auto box swap and not have risk of the issue popping up?

17th Jul 2017 7:04pm

LandRoverAnorak

Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 11240

2013 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 USW Orkney Grey

Yes, in the same way as buying a Toyota instead would... Darren

110 USW BUILD THREAD - EXPEDITION TRAILER - 200tdi 90 BUILD THREAD - SANKEY TRAILER - IG@landroveranorak

"You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!" - Princess Leia

17th Jul 2017 9:16pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16875

2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 DCPU Stornoway Grey

kbf1981 wrote:
Would changing engine / gearbox fix it? E.g. if you really wanted to over enginer a solution, could you do an LS3 auto box swap and not have risk of the issue popping up?

Yes, perhaps unsurprisingly if you don't have the shaft you won't be troubled with it failing! It is a rather expensive solution, however, and you will still have the other driveline failure modes.

17th Jul 2017 10:04pm

lightning

Member Since: 23 Apr 2009
Location: High Peak, Derbyshire
Posts: 2239

Just fit the Ashcroft modified part, and then forget about it, because it will never fail again.
Seems a no brainer to me. Although easy for me to say l suppose, as l could afford the cost of having it done.

21st Jul 2017 4:15pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16875

When I hear a credible report of someone who has had a shaft fail, and subsequently run over 200,000 miles without problems on an Ashcroft shaft without further problems, I'll accept the statement above.

I don't doubt the efficacy of the Ashcroft shaft but I haven't yet heard of one that has done a high enough mileage to substantiate that claim. I don't say that there aren't any, only that I haven't heard of any.

21st Jul 2017 4:57pm

lightning

Member Since: 23 Apr 2009
Location: High Peak, Derbyshire
Posts: 2239

The originals are failing in as little as 20,000 miles due to lack of oil. The shaft has no facility to get any oil apart from what is applied during assembly.

As the Ashcroft modification adds a constant lubricating facility to what is exactly the same part, l would be fairly confident that it would be the end of the problem.

21st Jul 2017 10:57pm

blackwolf

Member Since: 03 Nov 2009
Location: South West England
Posts: 16875

There's more to the problem than simply lubrication, I think. There are some that fail in under 5k miles, and others that are fine after 200k miles. I believe that there are lubrication, alignment, and materials spec issues.

When I meet someone with a 200k miles Ashcroft conversion, then I'll be convinced.

21st Jul 2017 11:08pm

Pickles

Member Since: 26 May 2013
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3753

2013 Defender 90 Puma 2.2 CSW Keswick Green

I tend to agree with Blackwolf. Ours failed at 40,000K, and very easy ks they were too, so I reckon if ours went, there'd be a good chance that many others would too. Luckily ours was under warranty, & the replacement shaft was greased with the correct stuff.
If I had a late model Puma, and the shaft hadn't already failed, I'd be having it checked, maybe at the next service etc,...might cost a few bob, but let me tell you, it'd be a lot more preferable to getting "stranded", which is definitely not a nice experience.
Pickles.

21st Jul 2017 11:41pm

doublea

Member Since: 12 Jul 2011
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 494

2016 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 Adventure Phoenix Orange

lohr500 wrote:
Hi Leviathan,

Reading the blurb on the Ashcroft site, it sounds to me as if they use the standard LR parts as the start point, adapting both the female & male components as part of the modification. From their website.

We take a new LR030054 and spark erode two small slits in the front face where it fits to a bearing, also remove two teeth from the front spline at 180 degrees to eachother, then spark erode another two small slits on the rear face under the clamping bolt, this now allows oil to 'leak' out of the mainbox to this spline. We also turn a thread on the outside diameter and also make two O ring grooves.

The TUD500020 has a ground diameter that the transfer case input seals runs on, we take a new part and regrind it to run this diameter further up towards the gearbox.

If/when mine lets go I think I would spend the money on the Ashcroft solution as dragging the transfer box out without a ramp is something I wouldn't want to be doing too often!

Mmmm. Should I fork out for an Ashcroft now, and when mine fails get land rover to fit it instead of their own flawed part, then sell the standard land rover parts to Ashcroft for modification and selling on? Bit like reconditioning exchange but in the wrong order.

Or just ask Ashcroft to send them back modified for our other defender! Both of our 2016 defenders had the blue gunge coming out of the transfer box vent, maybe they will last a little longer.

There must be dozens, if not hundreds of premature output shaft failures. My sister's 2013 90 output shaft failed at 22000 miles. Mrs Doublea's 2013 90 was ok, but it had only covered 10000 miles when we sold it. Time for a poll on here? Surely land rover should recognise this as a design flaw and offer a more permanent solution or extended warranty. Audi increased the warranty on the B7 model RS4 "DRC" suspension from 3 to 5 years on account of the failure rate, albeit on a quiet basis/unofficial basis. Current Steeds:
2015 110 UW in Grasmere Green
2003 BMW F650 the Hack
2000 Elise
1992 Ducati 888 (no longer in bits, yahoo)
1990 TDR 250 (in bits again)
1988 TDR 250 (no longer in bits) and for sale

22nd Jul 2017 1:01am

Fifth Horseman

Member Since: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Lanarkshire
Posts: 322

Mines failed twice now during my ownership at intervals of approximately 20K miles (and I strongly suspect it had failed and been replaced just before I bought it), at the last failure the shaft was replaced with the Ashcroft modified unit. That was about 16K miles ago, TBH I am not completely confident that it is a complete 'cure' but time (and milage) will tell.

Times like this I wish I hadn't sold my '07 Puma - 87K miles and no shaft problems (but one cutch replacement)

22nd Jul 2017 9:07am

proloForêt

Member Since: 16 Mar 2017
Location: Montereau
Posts: 248

2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Java Black

I can not in this instance of yours feel that other than the multiple shaft failures is a symptom of a greater problem. Alignment of the things?

22nd Jul 2017 9:56am

Landumph

Member Since: 07 Sep 2013
Location: Mendip Hills
Posts: 28

1993 Defender 90 V8 Petrol HT Arles Blue

Just had a conversation with JLR Customers Services after I emailed them about the imminent failure of my output shaft.
My vehicle is 2011 model year with 25000 miles, orange dust all over the transmission (I attached photos) I was informed that JLR will not be offering any financial assistance as I have not had my vehicle serviced at a main dealer ( used local independent who is on their list but not approved) and the mileage is not high enough for a 7 year old vehicle.
Now I know why I've had to have a new clutch, new rear half shafts and a new rear diff (all under warranty) I'm not driving far enough!!
What a load of .....
I'm going to fix, flog it and buy a Toyota, I'm fed up with Land Rover and their crap cars!
There rant over....

28th Jul 2017 1:20pm

Landumph

Member Since: 07 Sep 2013
Location: Mendip Hills
Posts: 28

No, I've just been looking at a Jeep, I'll get one of those because they understand their heritage unlike Land Rover's design guru, lets make 'em all look the same McGovern
Sorry, I've just realised how annoyed I am

28th Jul 2017 2:19pm

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