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| CatherineF Member Since: 22 Nov 2014 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 762  
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Am I right in thinking it's Morrisons that sells a high level Bio Diesel?
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27th Nov 2014 7:40pm |
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| jomara Member Since: 26 Oct 2009 Location: Lanarkshire Posts: 1754  
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I'm sure Morrisons have 7% in their diesel as opposed to 5% in BP & Shell, I may be wrong though!!
I personally never use Morrisons as we have had problems with water in the filter on our Sprinter twice, both times were shortly after filling up from one of their pumps. 2014 110 2.2TDCi XS Station wagon 1971 Bowler Tomcat 88 4.2 V8 Auto 2022 110 250D XS |
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27th Nov 2014 7:47pm |
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| CatherineF Member Since: 22 Nov 2014 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 762
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Interesting because someone has put that elsewhere on the forum with a link to an article about one of their stations in Wales that's affected with water in the tanks.
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27th Nov 2014 8:27pm |
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| munch90 Member Since: 26 Oct 2013 Location: guildford Posts: 3558 
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well in 30 yrs of car trade myself ,the only fuel problems we have had where you could say there was no doubt the problem was caused by fuel was the silicone contamation in 2007
we have had water in fuel always been a pipe on the car somewhere or with diesels you get the truth in the end "oh I got some cheap of a mate in a can " , but with the amount of fuel being used and sold I would yes at some time you will get a problem once in a while all I would say is all modern diesel fuel is cr@p , it drys up like petrol now and that means to me it lacks oil or some kind of lube I think all you need to do is use a mix of good and bad , the cheaper stuff cant be that bad as they would have hunderds of court cases against them 99% of the time its just bad luck if you get pump / injector / engine problems Last edited by munch90 on 27th Nov 2014 8:52pm. Edited 2 times in total |
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27th Nov 2014 8:46pm |
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| Marky Boy Member Since: 25 Oct 2013 Location: Maidenhead Posts: 96
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I have used vpower or ultimate for every fill for the last 2 months and reckon I get 10 to 15% better mpg against 7 % more expensive fuel. It also runs better and so it's awing win for me.
My old scooby used to use v power etc. or it de tuned itself. |
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27th Nov 2014 8:46pm |
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| jomara Member Since: 26 Oct 2009 Location: Lanarkshire Posts: 1754
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Another problem occurred when the tanker topped up their petrol tanks with diesel, there were dozens of cars stranded around the town from that episode, Morrisons had to flush their tanks and pay for the repairs to the affected motorists. Trying to find the link for the local newspaper. 2014 110 2.2TDCi XS Station wagon
1971 Bowler Tomcat 88 4.2 V8 Auto 2022 110 250D XS |
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27th Nov 2014 8:47pm |
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| AndyS Member Since: 18 Aug 2012 Location: London Posts: 595 
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I run mine on whatever I'm near when the beep goes off. That could be Gulf, Esso, Sainsbury, Shell or BP. Right up until the last fill I have used the regular stuff but last time, because the price has come down so much, I put in super V-Power Shell and found no difference at all other than a slightly quieter EGR valve on shutdown. Back to the regular stuff for me (currently £1.25.9/ltr which is as low as it's been in a long while).
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27th Nov 2014 9:00pm |
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| Cuthbert Member Since: 26 Oct 2013 Location: Up North Posts: 1535 |
Once again I'm scanning the many posts on this thread and asking myself - "Who actually knows what they are talking about and who are the blokes reciting stories they heard second-hand down the pub (assuming they are actually old enough to go to a pub). Maybe .... just maybe ....... young Mr Whittaker actually knows something about this topic? Always worth listening to a man in the trade. |
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27th Nov 2014 9:03pm |
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| ericvv Member Since: 02 Jun 2011 Location: Near the Jet d'Eau Posts: 5816  
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With suggesting to do a search of "BP Ultimate", I meant the following thread on here: http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic11415....p;start=15 You never actually own a Defender. You merely look after it for the next generation. http://youtu.be/yVRlSsJwD0o https://youtu.be/vmPr3oTHndg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GtzTT9Pdl0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqKPz28e6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ49Jce_n0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvAsz_ilQYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8tMHiX9lSw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dxwjPuHIV7I https://vimeo.com/201482507 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSixqL0iyHw |
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27th Nov 2014 9:47pm |
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| keith Member Since: 15 Aug 2012 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2155
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I'm on a 60% / 40% diesel / veg oil mix for my 2.2
No probs smooth and quiet , although all pointers are not to use veg oil in this engine . |
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27th Nov 2014 11:00pm |
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| party monkey Member Since: 31 Dec 2010 Location: Oxon. Posts: 1311 
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'All supermarket fuels are cr4p' - wrong !
'It's all the same stuff' - err... not completely correct. Putting the additives to one side for a moment, the reality is that, fuel 'quality' varies in the UK from region to region and that will come down to the source of supply of the base fuel and the bio blended in (both proportion and type of bio) UK imports a reasonable amount of diesel as our ageing refineries are gasoline machines. All diesel fuel in the UK must meet/exceed the specifications laid down in BS EN590 with winter & summer variations on cloud point and pour point. The spec currently allows for up to 7% biofuel (FAME, UCOME) to be blended and thanks to our EU chums now has a max sulphur content of 10ppm. It used to be 2000ppm in the early nineties. Sulphur is a natural lubricant and due to the processes required to 'de-sulphurise' the fuel, diesel now has a lower energy content and therefore is around 1-2% less fuel efficient.. great eh... Probably the most obvious 'quality' variable we'll notice as punters will be the Cetane Number. This is a measure of the speed of combustion of the pressurised fuel. The higher the number, the quicker the compressed fuel combusts, leading to less engine 'knock', a smoother sounding, more responsive engine and less unburnt fuel left in the chamber, so perhaps a smidge more economy. Cetane minimum in UK diesel currently is 51. Silly example for effect but let's say all the UK refineries produce home grown diesel with a Cetane number of 54 and all the imported stuff comes in just scraping over 51. If you fill up from a station supplied with solely imported Diesel, then again from a station supplied solely from a refinery, you should notice the difference. Now, lets bring logistics and economics into it but still ignore bio and additives for now. The reality is that each fuel brand in the UK will buy from each other, they'll also possibly import a bit of stuff , and swap product around the country and it's all likely to get mixed up in the same tank farm, the 54 cetane, the 51.1 cetane, the 52 cetane etc. And this is what people mean when they say 'all the different brander tankers come out of the same depot'. BP & Shell (not picking on them for anything other than good examples) no longer have refineries in the UK, yet they still have stations all over the place. Simply they buy from all the other refiners and importers. They'll import themselves, they'll have product swap deals in place (for example they give product to someone else 'down south' and they get it back 'up north'). Next. If I'm a refiner producing 54 cetane fuel and I only got to guarantee 51. I'm giving away specification value Hmmm... maybe I buy some cheap 'off spec' 50 cetane dirt cheap and blend some of my 54 in to it to bring it up to spec. Same thing goes for non refiner/blenders... buy a parcel of high cetane and blend it into some cheap below spec cetane and voila ... fuel that meets the spec. I'm simplifying this a touch but you get the gist that perhaps the higher cetane base fuel may not always make it into the fuel distribution chain as it doesn't need to. With all the different parcels of fuel going in to these distribution terminals, at a base fuel level there won't be a huge variation of fuel quality around the country. The exceptions could be where filling stations are supplied solely from one refinery who has a typical fuel spec that is notably different to the Heinz 57 variety from other supply terminals that supply competing sites. The next variable is bio blend content. As mentioned UK spec allows for up to 7% currently. I don't know enough about the properties of bio diesel to make to much of a reasoned observation but I believe that they vary from being cetane number enhancers (stuff made from Tallow I believe) to cetane number neutral to possibly a touch negative (really not sure on that)... I think Mr Whittaker can probably help out on that one 
Currently UK fuel suppliers (not marketers) are obligated to blend (I think, might be wrong) 4.75% across all fuels. You can meet this 4.75% by... either blending the bio in or, buying the over blend credits from other companies. Obligated 4.75%, blend 7%, sell credit of 2.25%. Or Obligated 4.75%, blend 2.50% and buy 2.25% or somewhere in between those extremes. Again, I'm simplifying this a touch as there are things like double credits for producers of biodiesel made from Used Cooking Oil (UCOME) as it's more sustainable. Once again logistics and economics come into play. Let's assume there is a terminal in the country where, due to the amount of money needed to invest in the additional tankage, pipe reconfiguration etc, they just simply don't bother blending any bio in at all. To make up for this, the company involved, simply over blends at all it's other terminals to take up the slack and they still meet their obligation overall. Or indeed, they just buy some over blend credits. The 'how much to blend' decision could be driven by the price differential between the bio and the diesel. If bio is cheap relative to diesel, then blend cost is low and chances are they'll blend more and vice versa. So you can see that starting from a reasonably level UK playing field on base fuel quality, we'll add a bio variable that may result in some parts of the country, there is a greater level of bio being blended in than others. Equally, there may be times when the whole country is running 'max blend' and 'min blend'. Bio content and winter waxing... a whole different story and can of worms 
Finally we get on to additives... and this is what the brands use to differentiate themselves ... Typically, the additives will be one or more of ... Detergent Cetane booster Lubricity enhancer (ah yes, we took out the sulphur) Corrosion inhibitors Anti foam I'm not totally sure about supermarket fuels but I believe that most run with either no additives or perhaps just a detergent. The bog standard branded fuels will probably go a step further and contain more but I'm doubtful they'd have much cetane booster. The premium fuels (Ultimate, V-Power etc) will have the lot no doubt and possibly in a stronger concentration too. I guess it's the Cetane booster where people notice the improvements of the premium fuels and fair play, if you're happy to pay for it, fill your boots, or tank preferably. So, back at a busy terminal in Scotland for sake of argument and a supermarket and branded tanker pull up at the same loading gantry and load from the same tank of base fuel that is 53 cetane, blended with 5% bio that is cetane positive. No additives for the Supermarket wagon and the branded one gets a squirt of the full monty package. Motorists at the branded site comment - 'It goes like a rocket, and sounds so smooth'. Motorists from the supermarket report they're perfectly happy, maybe not going like a rocket but all is good and sounds okay. Same scenario in say the Midlands. Except that the base fuel is just 51.1 cetane, no bio and the additives as before. Motorists at the branded site comment, 'yep it's good, but I'm sure it was better when I filled up with the same stuff in scotland' Motorists at the supermarket report 'It runs like a sack of  , gutless and sounds like a bag of spanners under the bonnet' ...
And that, my friends is my war and piece view on why we'll never agree on this topic 
For the record, I use Esso normal stuff most of the time, occasional fill of Shell normal as they're on my daily commute route. The odd time I've used supermarkets I can't say I've noticed any difference either way, other than once at Sainsburys when she ran like a rocket. Could never repeat the experience, so gave up. My one and only experience of BP Ultimate was it ran like a sack of .
PS.. Kingsbury is not a refinery Jon - 110 td5 [sold]. Currently Defenderless.Last edited by party monkey on 16th Dec 2014 6:02pm. Edited 1 time in total |
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28th Nov 2014 1:03am |
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| JWL Member Since: 26 Oct 2011 Location: Hereford Posts: 3443 
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Very well explained and hopefully can give the fuel 'debate' followers something to think about and realise the facts. If you live in an area where the supermarkets end up with the perfectly adequate diesel then they can rest in peace knowing that they are getting a bit of a deal over the mainstream forecourts . The simple fact is that you find the duff forecourts in your area and avoid. With the way of commerce you cannot allways guarentee the same product from the same company(note not supplier) around the country.
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28th Nov 2014 1:31am |
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| NinetyTD4 Member Since: 22 Apr 2011 Location: North Posts: 397  
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The mechanics is still good and there were only minor issues on the path. Don't see the end of the car, so will probably last for a lot longer. And No, as an educated physicist specialized in combustion technology, I don't believe in 2strokeOil for CR diesel engines. Never forget: cars have owner, Landrover have field service personnel. |
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28th Nov 2014 2:33pm |
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sorry.| Knot-yet Member Since: 21 Nov 2013 Location: N. Lincs Posts: 39
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Good explanation party monkey, sounds about right.
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28th Nov 2014 7:58pm |
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