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enfrance



Member Since: 09 May 2009
Location: Dordogne
Posts: 5

France 1995 Defender 90 300 Tdi SW Cairns Blue
buying a new Defender - DON'T

Are you thinking of buying a new Defender or indeed any Land Rover then as far as I am concerned, save your hard earned money and don't !

Yes when it comes to the Defender, the product is the best there is but the build quality and the materials LR use are so dire you are almost bound to have thousands of endless problems and countless thankless visits to the dealership in the attempt to remedy them.

So very sadly, what should you do (in my opinion)?

If you are hell bent on a Defender, personally I would go to one of the independant LR specialists and give them an exact build specification wish list for one which is at least 3 years old and then let them source one for you and build it exactly as you want it.
Most definitely it should have a galvanised chassis and bulkhead, poly bush suspension etc. etc.
In other words, let the poor first owner have all the countless warranty returns to the delership of which there are almost always countless, countless mind numbing visits!!!!!!!!!!

BUT, if you are insistant on buying a Defender type vehicle go our and buy a brand new IVECO MASSIF !

Unlike the totally disillusioned LR work-force who don't know when the big shut down will surely come, the Santana/IVECO work-force are proud about the product they are producing and IVECO have worked tirelessly since taking over Santana to make sure the build quality is as it should be.

Just look at the countries throughout the world who are now beginning to reequip their armed forces with the IVECO product in preference to the Defender and ask yourself why……………. Build quality and price are the only sensible answers, sad as that might seem to LR lovers. Bliss is having hundreds of miles of public access tracks to drive along in my big 'Louis' (300Tdi 90) right from my door!

Post #10606 9th May 2009 5:35pm
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alantd



Member Since: 14 Dec 2008
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 1457

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Tonga Green

I'm sorry you feel that way enfrance.

I don't think your comments really apply to the RR, D3 or FL2 - they don't suffer the same problems as the hand built Defender.

I agree that in a world that is increasing standards of quality and reliability, LR have let the Defender slip behind. The promise of a tough, go-anywhere vehicle sets expectations that it will be stronger than it is.

However, Defenders are binary - either you can't understand why people would put up with their many faults; or, regardless of the many frustrations of ownership, there's nothing else that would do.

Personally I'm in the latter and I guess you're in the former (although it sounds like you have a 300tdi).

If you want a go-anywhere, rugged off-roader, buy a G-wagon. If you want a Defender, buy a Land Rover. The Santana is just that - a Santana (I'm sure it's very good, by the way - it's just not a Land Rover and that's part of what I was buying into).

It is unfortunate that I've had to lower my expectations slightly, I admit. However, I will get the most out of the warranty. After that, I'll get the independent specialists on the case slowly upgrading the vehicle. In the mean time, I'll enjoy driving probably the coolest car in the world, smug in the knowledge that virtually every new car has problems but at least I'm expecting mine Very Happy 2.4 TDCi 110 XS

Post #10607 9th May 2009 5:54pm
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Glynparry25



Member Since: 16 Feb 2009
Location: Middle of nowhere- West Wales
Posts: 3016

Wales 2009 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS DCPU Tonga Green

alantd wrote:
I'm sorry you feel that way enfrance.


I second that.

BUT, it is the same for all manufacturers out there. My brother bought a Peugot 206 a few years ago. It would be in the dealer every other week for either a problem or a 'software upgrade', and that went on for over a year.

When buying new, expect there to be teething problems, but that is why there is a waranty, so that you can iron out the problems.

As for the 'IVECO MASSIF' Land Rover had away with leaf springs back in the early 80s for a good reason!!

Glyn

Post #10608 9th May 2009 6:08pm
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fekete



Member Since: 24 Dec 2008
Location: Here on the other end of the computer
Posts: 3616

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Bonatti Grey

Gly ill second that,

My brothers got the new ford mondeo, Its had 1 new engine and been in the dealer 18 times in 12 months
All cars have teething problems and the problem is these forums let us know about all the problems that
different vehicles have but not the good stuff we all love about our vehicles if you dont trust a L/R Dont buy one
simples!!!!!!

Enfrance GO and Play on the santana FORUMS with the other iveco massif crew, innit!!!! if thats whot you like Rolling with laughter NEVER TAKE LIFE SERIOUSLY. NOBODY GETS OUT ALIVE ANYWAY


Last edited by fekete on 9th May 2009 6:39pm. Edited 4 times in total

Post #10609 9th May 2009 6:23pm
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TJ101



Member Since: 30 May 2007
Location: Taunton Somerset
Posts: 2481

Isle Of Man 2015 Defender 110 Puma 2.2 XS CSW Montalcino Red

Mmmmm

My 110, Puma, was one of the first,, now near 2 years old,, been to the dealer once !! (abs lead at 600 miles and a week or so old !) Does not get over used, as still under 10,000 miles, but when it does !! used as it should be, Just off tomorrow to Morocco, for this years trip 5k + miles,, Last year it did 4k round Spain and Portugal, 60% off road !! and all without problems !!!

My previous G4 Range Rover Sport was bough direct from LR when they were released after the 2006 event,, Had a few warranty jobs, biggest was refitting the active cruise, so hardy a fault of the vehicle,,
So far the Sports replacement (08 G4 D3 TDV6) has also been problem free, bar the similar fuel consumption, as the Sport which had a proper V8 4,4 engine Shocked

So can only speak as i find,, Would be interested in why your first post on here, is to attempt to convince yourself that the Santana is a better car Laughing 997TT, RR TDV8 Vog SE 90 V8 Hybrid
www.wessex4x4response.org.uk

Post #10610 9th May 2009 6:25pm
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dgardel



Member Since: 30 Nov 2008
Location: Venice Italy
Posts: 2804

Italy 2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SW Stornoway Grey

First: Massif = SANTANA PS10 OLD LAND PROJECT 109

second: Iveco massif it isn't out yet (1 year of delay, and my be it will never came on the market) and dealer haven't info about it

if you read italian, look here

http://forum.fuoristrada.it/messages/18474/265256.html

Post #10611 9th May 2009 6:48pm
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philp



Member Since: 21 Oct 2008
Location: surrey
Posts: 21

2008 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 HT Tonga Green

I have owned several Defenders over the last 20 years and apart from the normal faults you expect to get on any new car; they have all been very reliable.... and mine do get abused!
I have a 2008 model Defender with the new Puma engine and I have every reason to believe it will still be going strong in another 20 years.


Some on this forum can be very negative towards the Defender,but just take a look where it counts;the used car market they are holding their prices.
If they where all that bad then by rights they should be giving them away!

I have been down the "indestructible" Hi-Lux route and found that they break a lot more easily than a Defender, and have just as many faults as any other vehicle.

Post #10612 9th May 2009 7:50pm
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AndrewS



Member Since: 10 Apr 2007
Location: Pembridge
Posts: 2656

United Kingdom 2013 Defender 130 Puma 2.2 SW Rimini Red

Very strange first post enfrance coming on to a forum to slate the vehicle manufacture.

Post #10614 9th May 2009 8:18pm
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parktag



Member Since: 30 Sep 2008
Location: Brittany
Posts: 331

France 2008 Defender 130 Puma 2.4 HCPU Zermatt Silver

It's also worth mentioning that land rover garages here are mediocer at best. If you use a ford garage/land rover garage your asking for trouble. They just don't seem to have the right training or interest. 130 crew cab
98 V8 Disco

Post #10615 9th May 2009 8:37pm
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MK



Member Since: 28 Aug 2008
Location: Santiago
Posts: 1591

Chile 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 SW Chawton White

To be honest let`s face it: Defenders have some serious problems. Unacceptable ones I would say:

1) Vacuum pump (3 designs already!)
2) Clutch
3) Something with the brake line on RH vehicles

You can`t rely on a vehicle with these troubles when you are in the middle of nowhere. Failure on any of these would leave you on site or worse you could have an accident.

Also, but less important, are the typical LR issues like poor sealing and driveline clonks. The general sealing on my Puma is worse than any Santana or Series I had in the past. I´ll have to take the fuel tank out and spray some 3M undersealant so the kids on the back do not get asfixiated and stuff stay dry. Puma 110" SW

.............................................................
Earth first. Other planets later

Post #10618 9th May 2009 11:58pm
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sasha2001



Member Since: 02 Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand+ russia
Posts: 197

New Zealand 2008 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 CSW Tonga Green
Re: buying a new Defender - DON'T

enfrance wrote:
Are you thinking of buying a new Defender or indeed any Land Rover then as far as I am concerned, save your hard earned money and don't !

Yes when it comes to the Defender, the product is the best there is but the build quality and the materials LR use are so dire you are almost bound to have thousands of endless problems and countless thankless visits to the dealership in the attempt to remedy them.

So very sadly, what should you do (in my opinion)?

If you are hell bent on a Defender, personally I would go to one of the independant LR specialists and give them an exact build specification wish list for one which is at least 3 years old and then let them source one for you and build it exactly as you want it.
Most definitely it should have a galvanised chassis and bulkhead, poly bush suspension etc. etc.
In other words, let the poor first owner have all the countless warranty returns to the delership of which there are almost always countless, countless mind numbing visits!!!!!!!!!!

BUT, if you are insistant on buying a Defender type vehicle go our and buy a brand new IVECO MASSIF !

Unlike the totally disillusioned LR work-force who don't know when the big shut down will surely come, the Santana/IVECO work-force are proud about the product they are producing and IVECO have worked tirelessly since taking over Santana to make sure the build quality is as it should be.

Just look at the countries throughout the world who are now beginning to reequip their armed forces with the IVECO product in preference to the Defender and ask yourself why……………. Build quality and price are the only sensible answers, sad as that might seem to LR lovers.

I have the same opinion of Citroen and Peugot (having had both), here in New Zealand they are rated just as well as "enfrance"
rates defenders
useless electrics (my friend ia an autoelectrician and makes a fortune!! when he can actually get the parts!!!))
brakesn etc, japanese are far more reliable than french cars so I would say to the french buy Japanese also

Post #10619 10th May 2009 4:31am
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enfrance



Member Since: 09 May 2009
Location: Dordogne
Posts: 5

France 1995 Defender 90 300 Tdi SW Cairns Blue
buying a new Defender - DON'T

I am sorry I ruffled a few feathers with the truth ! I only wrote what I did after having read several other lengthy complaints on this forum site about build quality problems.

I have nothing to do with IVECO but it is now out on the road (well here in France any way) and it is receiving excellent reviews.

The last new LR I owned was way back in 1996 it was a Disco and was by a very long way, the worst built car I had ever owned and it was only when I threatened legal action that it was taken back to LR to be totally rebuilt.

I know countless dozens of people who used to buy Defenders but none of them do so any more because of the attrocious build quality and general levels of unreliability. Most of the farmers have now gone for some kind of 'quad'or Japanese pick up 4x4 truck.

The sorry facts are that for countless years, the respective owners of LR have been appaled by the build quality and build costs of the Series vehicles, the 90/110 and now the Defender.

The other LR products have generally improved but as for the Defender, woh is me !!

And as for servicing agents and dealers, if you can find a good one you will be very lucky indeed and if you ever do keep it to yourself because otherwise they will be flooded out with other disgruntled owners trying to get there problems sorted out.

As for me, a few years ago and after my 30th brand new car I decided from then on to ever buy 2nd hand since when I have been a winner on so many fronts ever since, the two most important ones being.
a. lower levels of depreciation
b. the poor 'B' who had it first got the manufacturing problems sorted out. Bliss is having hundreds of miles of public access tracks to drive along in my big 'Louis' (300Tdi 90) right from my door!

Post #10621 10th May 2009 5:42am
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kljw



Member Since: 23 Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 265

Scotland 2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SVX Soft Top Auto Santorini Black

just looked at the iveco massif web page, looks allot like a defender to me! Cheers
keith
puer claudius

Post #10623 10th May 2009 1:12pm
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kljw



Member Since: 23 Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 265

Scotland 2009 Defender 90 Puma 2.4 SVX Soft Top Auto Santorini Black

and now have read the web page in more detail, it does not compare to the defender. Cheers
keith
puer claudius

Post #10624 10th May 2009 1:16pm
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alantd



Member Since: 14 Dec 2008
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 1457

United Kingdom 2007 Defender 110 Puma 2.4 XS CSW Tonga Green
Re: buying a new Defender - DON'T

enfrance wrote:
...
As for me, a few years ago and after my 30th brand new car I decided from then on to ever buy 2nd hand since when I have been a winner on so many fronts ever since, the two most important ones being.
a. lower levels of depreciation
b. the poor 'B' who had it first got the manufacturing problems sorted out.


Sounds like you've found the right solution for you.

As for the rest of us: most are extremely happy with our Defenders, some are mildly frustrated by sloppy workmanship and unacceptable service, and a few have had serious problems that have caused them a real headache (most of those have stuck with the brand, though).

Good luck with whatever car you choose and feel free to chip in any constructive advice for those of us who have already bought into the Defender. 2.4 TDCi 110 XS

Post #10625 10th May 2009 1:36pm
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